Episode 34
What Really Kills Reliability: Friction, Springs, and Ejection Patterns (ft. Mitchell Defense)
Gun Owners of America hosts Kailey and John sit down with Nathan Mitchell, owner of Mitchell Defense, for a deep look at what actually makes an AR reliable. Nathan comes from a military background as a Recon corpsman and an oil field background, where he ran a pipe inspection business and learned how corrosive, high friction environments get engineered around with coating technology, spring technology, and manufacturing processes that reduce friction. He brings that same whole-body, problem-first thinking to rifles. His point is direct: a lot of the firearm industry solves problems it invented, while ignoring the real pain points inside the upper receiver, the bolt carrier group, and the springs.
The technical core of the episode is friction, springs, and ejection patterns. Nathan explains why a direct impingement system gums up, how a carbon cutter and sand cutter mechanically clear dirt and debris, and why thermal fitting the barrel keeps accuracy stable as the barrel heats up. He breaks down the difference between round wire and flat wire springs: round wire only lasts about 8,000 cycles before it loses its springiness and is weakest exactly when it strips rounds from the magazine, while Mitchell Defense's flat wire buffer system runs far longer, gives more even forward pressure, and cuts felt recoil. He argues mil-spec should not be the baseline, walks through what mil-spec actually means on bolts and accuracy, and shares an independent endurance test that ran 17,554 rounds without cleaning or lube before the first failure, plus a carbon cutter sent to a machine gun range in Vegas that passed over 20,000 rounds in Colt M4s.
The back half turns to policy and people. Kailey and John lay out where the NFA stands after the tax dropped to zero, what that could mean for SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, and AOWs, and why machine guns stay regulated under the 1986 Hughes Amendment. Nathan describes the real business pain of a slow industry waiting on January. The conversation closes on two things every gun owner can act on now: support local brick and mortar dealers, who should be subject matter experts who match the right gun to the right person instead of pushing incentive products, and go train with a quality trainer, because training exposes the small details, like a failed gun or a forgotten sight, that no theory prepares you for.
Questions this episode answers
What actually makes one AR more reliable than another?
Reliability comes from reducing friction inside the upper receiver, bolt carrier group, and springs, using coatings, better spring technology, and manufacturing that solves the rifle's real pain points. Nathan Mitchell argues much of the industry instead solves problems it invented while ignoring those failure points.
Should mil-spec be treated as the baseline standard for a rifle?
Nathan Mitchell says mil-spec should not be the baseline. He walks through what mil-spec actually means for bolts and accuracy and treats it as a floor a serious build should exceed, not a target to hit.
Why do round wire springs cause reliability problems, and how do flat wire springs fix them?
Round wire springs last only about 8,000 cycles before losing their springiness, and they are weakest exactly when stripping rounds from the magazine. Mitchell Defense's flat wire buffer system runs far longer, delivers more even forward pressure, and cuts felt recoil.
How many rounds can a well-built AR run without cleaning or lube before it fails?
In Mitchell Defense's independent endurance test, a rifle ran 17,554 rounds without cleaning or lube before the first failure. Separately, a carbon cutter sent to a machine gun range in Vegas passed over 20,000 rounds in Colt M4s.
Why does thermal fitting a barrel matter for accuracy?
Thermal fitting the barrel keeps accuracy stable as the barrel heats up during sustained fire. It is one of the friction- and tolerance-control methods Nathan Mitchell uses to keep a rifle consistent under real use.
What happens to the NFA now that the tax stamp has dropped to zero, and will machine guns be affected?
With the National Firearms Act (NFA) tax dropped to zero, hosts Kailey and John discuss what that could mean for SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, and AOWs. Machine guns stay regulated under the 1986 Hughes Amendment and are not opened up by the change.
How should a gun store match the right firearm to a new or first-time buyer?
Local brick and mortar dealers should act as subject matter experts who match the right gun to the right person, rather than pushing incentive products. Supporting those dealers is something the episode frames as tied to protecting the Second Amendment, or 2A.
Why is training with a quality trainer so important, even for experienced shooters?
Nathan Mitchell calls training the most important thing in the industry because it exposes small details theory never prepares you for, like a failed gun or a forgotten sight. Training builds the fundamentals that actually keep a shooter reliable under pressure.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and introducing Nathan Mitchell
- 01:18 — Rapid fire questions
- 06:25 — Nathan's military and oil field background
- 08:33 — Solving real problems inside the rifle
- 10:53 — Is mil-spec the bare minimum?
- 14:24 — What makes a Mitchell Defense rifle stand out
- 16:46 — Springs, friction, and felt recoil
- 17:41 — The 17,554 round endurance test
- 19:13 — Building a system: gas ports and ejection patterns
- 21:48 — From the soapbox: a slow industry
- 25:59 — The NFA tax to zero and what it means
- 34:55 — Support your local brick and mortar
- 44:44 — Why training is the most important thing
- 52:35 — Where to find Mitchell Defense and goodbye
About the guest
Nathan Mitchell is the owner of Mitchell Defense. He says he comes from a military background, having served as a Recon corpsman, and an oil field background, where he ran a pipe inspection business and earned his master's degree. After selling that company he moved to Philadelphia and got into the firearm space, starting with custom rifles before building Mitchell Defense around three pillars: accuracy, reliability, and durability. His target market is law enforcement and military end users. He also does a lot of work with Riker USA.
Key quotes
"We don't solve problems that we create." — Nathan Mitchell
"I don't think that mil spec should be the baseline." — Nathan Mitchell
"our last independent endurance Test, we ran 17,554 rounds without cleaning or lube before we had the first failure." — Nathan Mitchell
"Training is the most important thing I think in this industry." — Nathan Mitchell
"support your local brick and mortar, because without them, we lose a huge part of the Second Amendment." — John
"Because the fundamentals are the most important thing." — Nathan Mitchell
Transcript
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kailey.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by Nathan from Mitchell Defense.
Speaker B:Nathan, thank you for joining us.
Speaker B:Can you go ahead and just introduce yourself to the folks out there?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm Nathan Mitchell.
Speaker C:I'm the owner of Mitchell Defense.
Speaker C:I come from a military background, oil field background, and now I'm in the gun space and I'm super excited to be on this podcast.
Speaker B:We're super excited to have you on the podcast.
Speaker B:I've heard about your product for a very long time.
Speaker B:Good friend of mine of ours, Sean Herron has talked nothing but good stuff about you.
Speaker B:I got a chance to meet you a year ago and talk to you a little bit about your product.
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Speaker B:It delivers precision built confidence.
Speaker A:Learn more@langdontactical.com and use code LTTGOA for $100 off orders over $1,000.
Speaker B:Let's just go ahead and dive into this.
Speaker B:We'll start off with our first segment which is rapid fire questions.
Speaker B:We're going to ask you five questions.
Speaker B:You answer them how you see fit.
Speaker B:The first one is what is the best thing about working with your spouse?
Speaker C:Best part about working with my spouse is not working with my spouse.
Speaker C:No, my wife.
Speaker C:So that's like, it's always an interesting question.
Speaker C:Like me and my wife balance each other really well.
Speaker C:Like I'm very much like let's do this, let's go, go, go.
Speaker C:And she's like the person that's like hey, like well, let me look at some stuff.
Speaker C:She's very corporate America.
Speaker C:I'm very much like go for broke.
Speaker C:So it's always nice having a good little balance in there.
Speaker A:Who do you feel like is the most influential content creator right now?
Speaker C:Who?
Speaker C:That's a question.
Speaker C:Be real honest.
Speaker C:I don't watch a lot of content creation.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:Man, that is a very hard question.
Speaker C:I mean as far as like influential like person people who have like the largest re.
Speaker C:I think GBRS is doing a lot of great stuff as far as like getting information out there to people that are like, because I come from a tactical space, like I, I as an end user I look at things very, very differently.
Speaker C:Like, not from like a hunting space or any of that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:Like, I feel like they have a lot of reach.
Speaker C:I mean, there's guys like CTT Solutions.
Speaker C:He does a great job of putting out like practical content that's like, it based on like real world stuff.
Speaker C:Matt Pranket does a very good job of putting out like good information out there.
Speaker C:I don't think they have as large of a reach though, as like what the GBRS guys have.
Speaker B:Not Student of American Rifle.
Speaker C:I don't even really watch any of that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I really, I honestly, the YouTube stuff, like in the content creators, I am so far out of that space.
Speaker C:Like, I, I live in like law enforcement and military.
Speaker C:I, I don't, I try, I, I pawn off the civilian side and I feel like a lot of the content creation is like more of the civilian side.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I agree with that.
Speaker B:What is your favorite firearms operation?
Speaker B:Operating system.
Speaker C:Operating system.
Speaker C:I mean, direct impingement, I think it's, it, it balances out a lot of things.
Speaker C:It has its flaws, but I mean the direct impingement system on the ars, it's, it's pretty easy to mitigate the, the downfalls.
Speaker C:Like a piston system, you can't like, it's like taking a hammer versus taking like an air hose and like to operate it.
Speaker C:So that would be, that'd be mine.
Speaker A:What is the most underrated item for prepping?
Speaker C:And these are hard questions.
Speaker C:Most underrated, man.
Speaker C:So there's two things.
Speaker C:Like, so I would say food and like a gas mask.
Speaker C:So it's like the whole.
Speaker C:With prepping, like, so we live in the city.
Speaker C:So like my biggest concern is getting out of the city.
Speaker C:And so it's like, all right, what kind of attacks are we looking at?
Speaker C:We're looking at or like iodine tablets or like, what is it?
Speaker C:Prussian blue?
Speaker C:Like if I could just find like a, like a stockpile of that, that'd be great.
Speaker C:But it's like getting out of the city.
Speaker C:So it's like, okay, well, we have to figure out like route planning, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:But it's like if the power grid goes down, the US like estimates that within 90, 90% of Americans would be dead because there's no access to food.
Speaker C:No one knows how to hunt or grow their food.
Speaker C:And in places that do have the availability of resources, they're going to get overran and everything's going to get killed.
Speaker C:So being able to like feed your family, to like wait that part out.
Speaker C:I Think is a.
Speaker C:An underrated thing.
Speaker C:Gas mask.
Speaker C:I mean, depending on what kind of a.
Speaker C:Like that's the whole thing.
Speaker C:Like getting out of getting off the X.
Speaker C:So like having a gas mask, like, most likely you would probably need it for anything that people are predicting it could be possibly happening.
Speaker B:All right, last question, I guess is the easy one.
Speaker B:If you can make one firearms related movie more realistic, what would it be?
Speaker C:Oh, have you guys seen havoc?
Speaker B:I have not.
Speaker A:I have not.
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C:You want to talk about one?
Speaker C:One of my friends is in it.
Speaker C:Michelle, we were talking about that earlier.
Speaker C:She's in it.
Speaker C:Every single gun scene is in full auto.
Speaker C:Like even the pistols.
Speaker C:Like this guy, there's like one scene where he's like in a hospital and like goes and like shoots a guy and it's a full auto pistol.
Speaker C:I was like, who actually carries one of those?
Speaker C:So I would really, really like that movie to get a little bit better.
Speaker C:That would be mine.
Speaker C:There's a lot of.
Speaker C:There's so many movies out there though, except Lioness.
Speaker C:Lioness.
Speaker C:They do a fantastic job of.
Speaker B:Lioness was fantastic.
Speaker B:The new terminal list is really good.
Speaker C:I haven't watched that one yet.
Speaker C:Dark Wolf.
Speaker B:Yes, really good.
Speaker B:The new ballerina was pretty good.
Speaker C:Ballerina was pretty good.
Speaker C:But when you're like having like a bunch of explosives going out in a really tight room, I mean, she died like 30 times in that scene.
Speaker B:I can agree with that.
Speaker C:I remember watching it.
Speaker C:I texted my buddy Ron Holmes, and I was just like, dude, the explosive scenes.
Speaker C:And he's like, yeah, she's bleeding profusely out the nose at a like, bare minimum, like overpressure alone.
Speaker C:I mean, come on.
Speaker B:Not only that, the flamethrower scenes, which.
Speaker C:Were just cool though.
Speaker B:That was cool.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's some things that are unrealistic, but it's like, all right, you get cool points on it.
Speaker C:That was one of them.
Speaker B:All right, so let's go ahead and dive into the meat and potatoes of this.
Speaker B:Go ahead and give a little bit more of a backstory of why you started the company, what made you get into this, all that stuff.
Speaker C:So I was in the military, so I was at recon, so I was a corpsman.
Speaker C:So we marines don't have their own medic, so we're on the recon side.
Speaker C:So I got to go through all that training.
Speaker C:So being an actual end user after I got out of the military, got my degree, went out to oil field, got my master's degree, we had a pipe inspection business out in the oil field.
Speaker C:And when you want to talk about, like, corrosive, high friction environments and then putting billions of dollars in R and D, that is the oil field.
Speaker C:Like those guys that have put so much money into well uptime, because, I mean, like, if you strip a well down because, like, the pump blows or like there's.
Speaker C:You have to change out a part, I mean, you're talking, like, possibly months, this thing's down, not making revenue.
Speaker C:So, like, they put a lot of effort into making these wells stay up for longer.
Speaker C:And so that's like a lot of coating technology, spring technology, like different manufacturing processes that reduce friction.
Speaker C:So I learned a bunch about that.
Speaker C:So getting my master's was great out there.
Speaker C:Also learned a lot about business.
Speaker C:I mean, it's.
Speaker C:It's pretty easy to learn business whenever you're in the oil field, because money doesn't matter.
Speaker C:Like, it.
Speaker C:You focus on the, like, the relationship side of it.
Speaker C:So whenever I sold that company out there, and my wife's from Philadelphia, so she made me move to Philadelphia because I had no.
Speaker C:Like, I kept her in Midland, Texas for a long period of time.
Speaker C:And like, if you've ever been to Midland, Texas, it's was a labor of love for her to move out there, Especially from a city there's nothing there.
Speaker C:So we moved to Philadelphia and I, I always wanted to get into the firearm space.
Speaker C:Like, I've always been a collector.
Speaker C:I've always, like, loved guns.
Speaker C:And so, like, I just kind of, like, looked at it.
Speaker C:A gun.
Speaker C:I was like, doing custom rifles for a little bit because it was just like, all right, cool.
Speaker C:Like, we can do some fun stuff with this.
Speaker C:And then you start looking at the system and it's like, all right, taking like the.
Speaker C:So military medicine, we are taught the whole body approach.
Speaker C:Like, you're.
Speaker C:You're taught to learn how the body functions so you know how to fix it.
Speaker C:So, like, if you're doing tactical medicine in austere environments and you have nothing, like, you don't have the band aid that you need to put on something, you have to find a band aid.
Speaker C:And so you have to use, like, your thought process of how things work in order to do that.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And then the oil field, you have like, the engineering side of it.
Speaker C:So like, taking those two approaches, like looking at a rifle and being like, all right, take all the things that are talked about on Reddit and all, like, the misinformation that's out there and people, what they say is the best and looked at the rifle and say, all right, how does this thing function?
Speaker C:And how can we.
Speaker C:Like, where are the pain points?
Speaker C:The things that actually.
Speaker C:We don't solve problems that we create.
Speaker C:We actually solve real problems.
Speaker C:And that's what, like, one thing I hate about the firearm space is they all people come out with these products and they're like, oh, we solved this, this, and this.
Speaker C:I'm like, yeah, like, that wasn't a problem.
Speaker C:And then you also didn't solve all the other problems that are in the gun, in the operating system.
Speaker C:So, like, looked at it and was like, all right, how do we make this more effective for the operator and the end user?
Speaker C:Like, that's our.
Speaker C:That's my target market is law enforcement, military.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And that's.
Speaker C:And what that is is looking at, like, the high friction points.
Speaker C:Like, you're inside your upper receiver and your bolt carrier group and your springs.
Speaker C:Those are the moving parts inside your rifle that make it function.
Speaker C:And so, like, looking at how to, like, reduce friction.
Speaker C:And we do a bunch of stuff to reduce friction.
Speaker C:And then also, like, we have a carbon cutter, sand cutter, bolt.
Speaker C:It's like, it's mechanically removing dirt and debris from the system.
Speaker C:But, like, it's like anodized, is a high friction surface.
Speaker C:So if you have higher friction, that means that dirt and debris can stick to it easier.
Speaker C:That's why they get gummed up really, really bad.
Speaker C:So it's like, okay, well, how do we remove that and reduce that?
Speaker C:So putting a lot of that stuff.
Speaker C:And then like, thermal fitting, which, I mean, thermal fitting is not new to the firearm space.
Speaker C:There's like, what, three companies that we.
Speaker C:We do it, but that's something they use in the oil fill all the time.
Speaker C:Like, so thermal fittings, like, where you have to expect.
Speaker C:You heat up the upper receiver to expand the metal, put the barrel in there, and the metal cools and locks it into place.
Speaker C:Because people talk about deflection, like, all these crazy things, like, with guns, and you're just like, well, just thermal fit it.
Speaker C:Like, why would you not do that?
Speaker C:Like, you have micro movements that affect accuracy over time.
Speaker C:So, yeah, that's like a long one away.
Speaker C:We just.
Speaker C:We make a better bank stick.
Speaker B:No, I appreciate you diving into that because my background worked for an AR manufacturer.
Speaker B:Worked for a barrel manufacturer.
Speaker B:This is stuff that I like to hear because a lot of people look at an AR and just go, okay, well, every AR is the same.
Speaker B:That's not true.
Speaker C:Hey, I love that conversation.
Speaker B:I know, but there's all these little nuances.
Speaker B:So I do want to bring up.
Speaker B:I know I'm going to get you a little spicy here for a second before I know we got our from the soapbox, but we'll get you a little spicy.
Speaker B:Our friend Alan Forkner over at Gunbroker brought this up the other day.
Speaker B:Is milspec the bare minimum?
Speaker C:Oh, man.
Speaker C:So if you actually know what mil spec is, that's, that's where it gets a little bit dicey on that whole, that conversation.
Speaker C:So I mean, let's just talk about bolts for like.
Speaker C:So mil spec bolt is carpenter158.
Speaker C:High pressure tested individually.
Speaker C:High pressure tested and mpied.
Speaker C:So what you're technically supposed to do is take the bolt, fire it on a pro with the proof load, and then go and MPI it afterwards, make sure there's no cracks or deformities in it.
Speaker C:Well, there are so many studies out there right now that like, if a proof load will reduce the, the bolt life by 30%.
Speaker C:So it's like, okay, what is the necessity of this?
Speaker C:Like, how many bolts are failing?
Speaker C:So it's like, okay, the bolt manufacturer we talked to, like, they, I mean, I can't remember what the numbers are.
Speaker C:It's like 7,000, maybe a month.
Speaker C:Let's just go with that number.
Speaker C:They.
Speaker C:And out of so 7,000amonth, like over the course of five years, they've had four bolts fail.
Speaker C:It's like, okay, so this is not a necessary process and you're reducing your bolt life.
Speaker C:So like, so there's some things that mil spec does.
Speaker C:It's good and some things that don't, like, so armor loop coating, the coating that we use on the bolt carrier group, it's actually a mil spec coating.
Speaker C:It's probably one of the only mil spec things I actually agree with.
Speaker C:But I don't think that mil spec should be the baseline.
Speaker C:Mil spec is the cheapest buyer, their cheapest bidder.
Speaker C:There's some things that mil spec is over and above and there's most of the things that mil spec is below.
Speaker C:So like mil spec is 4 moa.
Speaker C:One moa should be the, like the industry standard.
Speaker C:Like we can make barrels cheap enough for one MOA accuracy all day long.
Speaker C:Like, and that's.
Speaker C:And people do that.
Speaker C:And like, there's still companies out there that guns are like four moa.
Speaker C:And so four MOA is not something that you should be basing accuracy on.
Speaker C:I mean, like, I mean, four MOA at 100 yards, you're going to hit your target if you're aiming dead center.
Speaker C:But most of the time guys are going to be shooting left, shooting right and you're missing your target.
Speaker C:So accurate.
Speaker C:So we, we have three pillars on in our rifles.
Speaker C:And this is what I believe every rifle should have is accuracy, reliability and durability.
Speaker C:So it shouldn't fall apart on you.
Speaker C:So parts should have to work.
Speaker C:So that's where like mil spec, they prove that, they prove that the bolts work.
Speaker C:They're not going to break on you.
Speaker C:Um, like reliability wise, I think that mil spec needs a reliability standard.
Speaker C:Um, I think that's something they're greatly lacking on.
Speaker C:It's like their mil spec is like round wire springs.
Speaker C:So round wire springs only last about 8,000 cycles before they lose their springiness.
Speaker C:And so you start to have issues with reliability.
Speaker C:So it's like, okay, well it's failing the end users because they're not changing the springs out that often.
Speaker C:And then accuracy wise, I mean they nil spec fails at accuracy mean it should like the industry standard should be above mil spec.
Speaker B:I couldn't have said it any better.
Speaker B:I know I say that a lot, but I agree.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:A lot of people will look at the AR15 and go stoner did it, did it right.
Speaker B:And we don't need to change it.
Speaker B:But there's a lot of small things that we can change.
Speaker B:And what you have done over the last couple years or as long as you've been around is you've made those changes.
Speaker B:And a lot of people don't understand what MOA actually is.
Speaker B:So there's that too.
Speaker C:That is correct.
Speaker C:A lot of gun manufacturers do not know understand what MOA is.
Speaker B:But I mean what, what I'm trying to think of what makes your product and I, and I've shot your product, what makes your product stand out versus all the other right.
Speaker B:Black rifles that are out there.
Speaker B:A lot of people will be like, well an AR15 is.
Speaker B:An AR15 is an AR15.
Speaker B:What makes you your guys stand out and makes the justification to get a Mitchell defense over something else.
Speaker C:So and so having like law enforcement, military end users is like the is is our in.
Speaker C:So and this is talking like departments and stuff.
Speaker C:So like one MOA are better.
Speaker C:Like that's.
Speaker C:We have one mo.
Speaker C:A guarantee on all, every one of our rifles, even like the seven and a half inch ones.
Speaker C:And I think that's an extremely important thing for someone who's, I mean either if you're defending your life or if you're using it in a tactical scenario, long range shooting, competition shooting or just Coming out plinking with your friends.
Speaker C:Accuracy, I think is something that definitely like we stand out.
Speaker C:I mean like one of our guns we ran, we had like 0.4 moa.
Speaker C:Like that was like in our accuracy testing, accuracy is greatly.
Speaker C:The, the guns are capable of it.
Speaker C:That doesn't mean the ammo is capable of it.
Speaker C:So just that's a caveat there because we did a test, I think we, we were anywhere between 0.4 moa and 6 moa based on what ammo we were shooting, which is like What'd you get 0.4 with?
Speaker B:Was it like a 69 grain?
Speaker C:No, I think that one was actually a 55.
Speaker C:It was match grade ammo.
Speaker C:The, the heavier bullets did have better accuracy, but it's just like I cannot remember it was Winchester match.
Speaker C:I can't remember what the grain was on it.
Speaker C:Um, and that actually surprised me a little bit.
Speaker B:What were we just talking about?
Speaker C:Oh, what makes it better?
Speaker C:Uh, so yeah, the accuracy portion of it, but then also our reliability.
Speaker C:So like in, in accuracy also has to stay accurate for longer courses of fire.
Speaker C:So you're like your barrel started to heat up and it starts to shift.
Speaker C:And so like the thermal fitting of our barrels, we maintain accuracy longer.
Speaker C:So like I, everyone talks about MOA being like a three round group, it needs to be a five round group.
Speaker C:Um, and that I'm like a firm believer in a five round group because like your barrel gets warm enough to start to throw rounds and usually it's the fifth round if you're gonna throw a round.
Speaker C:Um, and then reliability wise.
Speaker C:So that's a.
Speaker C:Reducing friction.
Speaker C:We have a proprietary buffer system, so we use a, a different type of spring that will last 8 or 200,000 cycles versus 8,000 cycles in like a round wire spring.
Speaker C:But it also gives more forward pressure and then the compression, like the, the resistance in the compression cycle is even throughout.
Speaker C:So like in a round wire spring, you have the most force whenever it's collapsed and then whenever it starts to spread back out, you lose your forward pressure.
Speaker C:And so like whenever it's stripping rounds out of the magazine is the weakest point of your spring cycle.
Speaker C:And so with that, a round wire or the springs that we use, the flat wire springs, they are stripping rounds out.
Speaker C:No matter how dirty that rifle gets, you're getting that more forward pressure.
Speaker C:But what it also does is felt recoil is greatly reduced because, because it evens out the entire cycle.
Speaker C:Um, so it's not, you don't get the slap and then muzzle rise.
Speaker C:So you're managing muzzle rise in the buffer system versus putting a compensator on and annoying everyone around you.
Speaker C:Um, and then reliability wise, like our last independent endurance test, and this is kind of the big one, and this is what sells most people, like, in the law enforcement space, specifically, like our last independent endurance Test, we ran 17,554 rounds without cleaning or lube before we had the first failure.
Speaker C:You read any review on people's, like the YouTubers reviews or any other companies, people will talk about 2,000 rounds.
Speaker C:And then when you're talking about like, insane reliability, it's 10,000 rounds.
Speaker C:We got 17,000.
Speaker C:Did not expect that to happen, by the way.
Speaker C:So 10,000 rounds is our minimum.
Speaker C:So we have like, we have very, very high standards of what our rifles have to perform to.
Speaker C:For it to be one of our rifles.
Speaker C:Um, and 10,000 was our minimum.
Speaker C:But then we greatly.
Speaker C:And then with our.
Speaker C:The sand cutter, the new carbon cutter, it's, you know, wording, uh, the carbon cutter, we actually sent it out to machine gun range in Vegas and said, hey, drop this into your Colt M4 machine guns and run it.
Speaker C:Don't take it out, don't clean it, don't do anything.
Speaker C:Run it till it breaks, um, and run it until it stops running and it's too dirty.
Speaker C:They were over 20,000 rounds before they had any type of slowdown of that thing.
Speaker C:That means just proof of concept, that car, the carbon cutter, just like it.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:Mechanically, it's a mechanical process that removes dirt and debris from your system.
Speaker C:And that's the one downfall of a direct impingement system is that you're like blowing dirt into the.
Speaker C:The whole system.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, what.
Speaker B:What buffer weight you running?
Speaker C:H1s?
Speaker B:H1s.
Speaker C:That's also very dependent on caliber and length.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:And that's like a balancing act because we build a system.
Speaker C:And so that's like.
Speaker C:And that's why I think, like, people will get very, like, they're like, oh, I build my own ars.
Speaker C:It's like, okay, well, like, we build a system like our gas port size, our gas blocks, our gas tubes, our bolt carrier groups, the coating on the inside of the thing, the coating on the.
Speaker C:I mean, we cut our gas rings, like, and then like our buffer weight, our buffer system, even our buffer tubes are redesigned for more efficiency.
Speaker C:We build a system like we like.
Speaker C:And we build different parts that go into all of our guns, like, which you can buy some of our parts.
Speaker C:But it's not just slapping some stuff together.
Speaker C:It's like we're, we're timing stuff.
Speaker C:We're like, we're actually working on like the, the speed, the like the ejection patterns like drilling gas ports based on size, dwell times, all that fun stuff.
Speaker B:What was the failure?
Speaker C:It was, it, it was complete carbon lock.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean you, you, you can't get away from that.
Speaker C:Like the chamber just gets so dirty at some point I think and it was, and I think the failure wasn't even like while we were shooting.
Speaker C:It was because we let them sit.
Speaker C:This is over like a six month period.
Speaker C:Like they just went back to it and then like couldn't get it to come out.
Speaker C:It was just completely carbon locked in there.
Speaker C:So you do need to clean your guns.
Speaker B:Yes, please clean your guns.
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Speaker A:So it is the time of the episode where we go to our from the soapbox where we take on the spicier takes within the industry in the two way space.
Speaker A:So the floor is yours for your spiciest take.
Speaker C:I need an example of what we're supposed to talk about.
Speaker B:Anything, anything, anything.
Speaker A:We've had gun owners, our hoarders all the way to.
Speaker B:Rants about the government.
Speaker A:I mean the floor is yours as spicy as you want to make it.
Speaker C:Yeah, so I don't, I mean the state of the industry right now is extremely slow.
Speaker C:This is like a love hate thing.
Speaker C:So like I don't really have a Real opinion.
Speaker C:It's just something I'm seeing, and it frustrates me.
Speaker C:The NFA tax going away is screwing us, and I'm gonna love it in January.
Speaker C:Do not get me wrong.
Speaker C:Whenever we're.
Speaker C:We'll probably buy a plane in January.
Speaker C:Who knows?
Speaker C:But getting to January, I mean, this whole industry is hurting.
Speaker C:Like, they.
Speaker C:Whenever they did that, and they did it for January, it was the worst thing that could have ever happened.
Speaker C:Because, I mean, I.
Speaker C:You could pinpoint it.
Speaker C:My sales in July were 20% of what we even had projected.
Speaker C:And we had a slow month projected and which.
Speaker C:I don't even know what date that came out.
Speaker C:But, like, everything after that, like, people are like, oh, I'm going to wait.
Speaker C:And then it's like, oh, the NFA is going away.
Speaker C:It's like, okay, hold on.
Speaker C:We got to talk about realistic timelines for a second.
Speaker C:And that's like.
Speaker C:That's something to me right now that's, like, extremely frustrating, is like, a business owner.
Speaker C:It's like, all right, we can't sell anything.
Speaker C:I mean, gun stores, me, everyone we talked to that we haven't sold an AR in months.
Speaker C:It's like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker C:Like, this is.
Speaker C:This is pretty bad.
Speaker B:Do you think the AR sales are a direct correlation or is it the suppressor sales that are holding it up?
Speaker C:So I don't think it's like, it's the suppressor.
Speaker C:I mean, the SBRS part of it, I think, is a big deal.
Speaker C:Suppressor sales have got to be something.
Speaker C:I mean, this is also our slow time.
Speaker C:Like, don't.
Speaker C:Like, we are projected to have a slow summer.
Speaker C:I mean, it.
Speaker C:I mean, it's the.
Speaker C:What is it, the Trump slump?
Speaker C:Like, we have this.
Speaker C:There's just a lot of things that are compiling that are making it a slow summer.
Speaker C:But, man, it is hurting the industry right now.
Speaker C:Like, I mean, every company I talk to, I mean, even, like, the manufacturers, like, manufacturers that were, like, willing to do things on credit, they're like, yeah, no, you're going to pay whenever you put the order in.
Speaker C:Because they're like, we are getting, like, screwed left and right of people not paying their bills.
Speaker C:And, like, I mean, there's a bunch of consolidation happening.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's definitely rocky to be in the industry right now.
Speaker C:AR side.
Speaker C:I mean, there's like, suppressors.
Speaker C:I think companies are doing well, but.
Speaker C:And also, like, gun stores.
Speaker C:One thing I just would love to get through to them, it's like, guys, come January, you're not going to be able to buy an SBR and like, two stamp guns and mean, that's going to be a huge thing, too.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And it's like, put your orders in now.
Speaker C:And that's something we can't get through to gun stores.
Speaker C:It's like, guys, can you put.
Speaker C:Put a PO in and I won't make you pay till January when I deliver it.
Speaker C:Like, just put your PO in.
Speaker C:Like, I can't, like, right now.
Speaker C:It's like, all right, I'm going to create 10 rifles this month because, like, I'm not going to, like, build a stockpile with the hopes that maybe you buy something in January.
Speaker B:Like, so what's your.
Speaker B:My prediction is this.
Speaker B:And I. I've told other industry guys this is.
Speaker B:My prediction is this.
Speaker B:We're going to see come January 1st, we'll see this jump and then a lull because there's going to be nothing in stock and then a jump and then we'll finally.
Speaker B:It'll start to even out probably around summertime.
Speaker B:Are you thinking the same thing?
Speaker B:Are we going to see.
Speaker C:Depends on the information that's getting put out about the NFA going away.
Speaker C:I think that is going to make or break our January.
Speaker C:I think there's a lot of people and we talk to them all the time.
Speaker C:They're like, oh, well, the NFA is going to go away before January, which I have.
Speaker C:I mean, you guys have your ear to the ground on that or really the forefront of it.
Speaker C:So, like, maybe it will.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:But I just.
Speaker C:To me, it just seems like we're years away on that one.
Speaker C:And, like, people think that it's going to go away.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:And so I think there.
Speaker C:I think we're going to have a huge bump on it, and then everyone's going to, like, die off because they're going to think the NFA is completely, completely going away.
Speaker C:And they're like, we don't want to be on a list.
Speaker C:It's like, okay, I get it.
Speaker C:I mean, that's actually pretty fair.
Speaker C:Like, if you actually think it's going to go away in a timely manner.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So as far as, like, the time on any lawsuits.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I would love to have a crystal ball and be able to say this is when.
Speaker A:When a decision is going to happen.
Speaker A:What we do know is court precedent.
Speaker A:We do know that the NFA was taken via lawsuit and the court decided that it was only constitutional because it was a tax.
Speaker A:That tax has now gone to zero.
Speaker A:We have our lawsuit saying that the NFA can't be in existence anymore because it's a $0 tax.
Speaker A:You've already ruled, they changed where $0 tax, that's an oxymoron.
Speaker A:It doesn't exist.
Speaker A:And so therefore this should, this should be a settled case.
Speaker A:Lawsuits are a very expensive, B, very time consuming.
Speaker A:And it all depends on the judges, the docket and then whether or not the federal government's going to appeal and what those appeals look like.
Speaker A:And is this something that would have to go to the Supreme Court or not?
Speaker A:All of those are variations in what this timeline could look like.
Speaker A:But as far as what we know as the precedents, the only reason it was ruled constitutional was because of it was connected to a tax and then now that taxes down to $0.
Speaker C:So what is the likely scenario?
Speaker C:I mean not even timelines, because timelines can be crazy.
Speaker C:But like will it have to go to the Supreme Court?
Speaker C:Like is that anticipated?
Speaker A:It all depends on what, what the federal government decides to do.
Speaker A:You know, never say never in American politics.
Speaker A:It's the first rule of American politics.
Speaker A:Yeah, but hopefully we won't have to go to the Supreme Court.
Speaker C:Wouldn't it benefit us though to go to the Supreme Court, like have the Supreme Court rule on that?
Speaker A:Not necessarily, no.
Speaker C:I just think they're like the like the highest thing in the land.
Speaker C:It makes it harder to overturn that later.
Speaker A:Well, yes and no.
Speaker A:It really, like I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on tv, so I don't, I don't really know the best answer.
Speaker A:But as far as it being, you know, decided law, there are plenty of things that we have stopped in the lower courts that have stood because you would have to bring in a whole other lawsuit.
Speaker A:And I'm not even sure how you would do that to overturn something that just because they took it to a $00 tax, it has something to do with legislative intent.
Speaker A:And again, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not going to go too far into the weeds.
Speaker A:But I mean we've been able to stop plenty of things without having to go all the way to the Supreme Court.
Speaker A:And those things have stood the test of time.
Speaker C:That's interesting.
Speaker C:And like did is there like a possibility of like if like the politics flips of them adding back the tax?
Speaker A:I mean there's always that opportunity.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So anytime that there's a budget related bill, theoretically they could and unless it was shut down.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you need the courts to remove it or you need a amendment through the legislature that's dealing with the substance of the nfa, because for the first time in history, the NFA was not considered a tax to get through the Byrd rule.
Speaker C:It's interesting.
Speaker C:Well, so this is like, I guess this is total lack of understanding.
Speaker C:So, like, I'm not like RE wing.
Speaker C:Maybe I am.
Speaker C:Who knows?
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:So are we trying to get rid of the NFA?
Speaker C:Are we trying to get SBRs and suppressors out of the NFA?
Speaker A:Trying to get.
Speaker C:Machine guns are still going to stay inside the NFA.
Speaker C:They're still taxed.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:So you have the NFA, which was in the 30s.
Speaker A:So we're trying to get rid of the NFA.
Speaker A:The machine gun ban was in 86.
Speaker A:So they're, they're two different things.
Speaker A:So machine guns will still be regulated.
Speaker A:It would just be.
Speaker C:But aren't they in the nfa?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:I mean, you still have to file like forms with the nfa.
Speaker A:Yes, it's technically.
Speaker A:Yes, it's complicated.
Speaker C:No, I know.
Speaker C:And that's like, I, this is, this is way outside my pay grade.
Speaker B:I, if I remember correctly from, from what I've learned again from, from our legal team and everything, the ruling through the reconciliation bill was strictly for suppressors, SBRs, SBSs and AOWs.
Speaker B:That went down to the, went down to five, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker B:Everything else went down to zero.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker A:So we'll check it after.
Speaker B:We'll have to check it after.
Speaker C:So gts, Google that stuff.
Speaker B:So right now the way it stands is we would be getting SBR SBS's suppressors out of the NFA completely.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And, and any other NAOWS.
Speaker B:And then machine guns would stay in under the 86.
Speaker B:86.
Speaker B:Which is the Hughes amendment.
Speaker B:Hughes amendment.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Trying to sound smart doesn't always work.
Speaker B:I don't foresee if I.
Speaker B:And again, Kaylee said crystal ball.
Speaker B:I don't foresee the Hughes amendment going away unless we get some sort of precedent to get machine guns, at least in my lifetime.
Speaker B:But this is the most we've seen a win for the Second Amendment in a very long time of getting the, at least the $0 tax stamp on SBR SBSS and, and suppressors.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Oh yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, getting, getting those out of the NFA would be huge.
Speaker C:I mean, I, there's no, I mean, we do a lot of international stuff and like, there's no other country that like, regulates them.
Speaker C:They always make fun of us.
Speaker C:Like whenever we're like talking to them, they're like, oh, it's like, oh, like sbrs and like, we.
Speaker C:We don't care.
Speaker C:We.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's a barrel length to us.
Speaker C:And like, suppressors are the same way in a lot of countries.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, who are we talking.
Speaker B:We talk about the.
Speaker B:We talked about this in an earlier episode where in Europe, suppressors are just.
Speaker B:It's civilized.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's the.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:Like, guns are, like, the only thing OSHA doesn't regulate for hearing protection.
Speaker C:It's like they had, like, OSHA has all these requirements for, like, if your workspace is this loud, like, whatever.
Speaker C:Like, like, oh, we can reduce the sound and say.
Speaker C:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Speaker C:You can't reduce sound of guns.
Speaker A:Well, actually, OSHA endorses the use of suppressors.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it.
Speaker C:The more, you know.
Speaker A:So it's the craziest thing with suppressors where you have.
Speaker A:OSHA endorses the use.
Speaker A:And the ATF is like, that's a gun.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Penis suppressor is not a gun.
Speaker B:There's no firing according to the ATF's definition of a gun.
Speaker B:It's the same thing with ATF's definition of an AR receiver, which makes me.
Speaker B:Listen, I could go on a rant for a while.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, I understand.
Speaker B:Like, they can't understand.
Speaker B:The whole definition of a firearm is the mechanism that causes the firearm to fire.
Speaker B:Hence why we see serial numbers on frames and receivers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:AR receiver.
Speaker B:The firing part is the upper receiver.
Speaker B:I mean, you've got the trigger, but the mechanical part.
Speaker C:Technically, they kind of have to work together, though.
Speaker B:Yes, they have to.
Speaker B:But it's weird how they word it.
Speaker C:I think they just had to pick apart.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker C:That's the way it was explained to me by the ATF's.
Speaker C:Like, you just.
Speaker C:We had to pick something.
Speaker B:Okay, okay.
Speaker B:The ATF just doesn't make any sense half the time.
Speaker B:And they're their technology department or whatever.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:What is that department that judges everything?
Speaker B:Somebody knows it.
Speaker C:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker C:Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I remember watching them fumble around trying to take apart a Glock.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:That guy.
Speaker B:That guy.
Speaker B:No, it's just it.
Speaker B:You're absolutely right.
Speaker B:I mean, the best thing I can say on everything is support your local brick and mortar, because without them, we lose a huge part of the Second Amendment.
Speaker C:They're the backbone of the industry.
Speaker C:Like, that is like your.
Speaker C:Your.
Speaker C:Like if, like before, like, getting into, like, the.
Speaker C:The gun industry, like, if I wanted to know something about guns, I went and asked my local Store, like, because you expect them to be subject matter experts.
Speaker C:And so local stores out there be subject matter experts, please.
Speaker C:But like that, that's like, we talk about it all the time, like, going away from online sales, like, trying to push everything out to the dealers.
Speaker C:Because, like, those are the people who have that one on one connection.
Speaker C:And like, we get a lot of phone calls, like people trying to have one on one connections with us.
Speaker C:I'm like, man, I will always answer the phone.
Speaker C:Like, our customer support line goes to me.
Speaker C:So like I said, most of the time I'm the only one who can answer the question because.
Speaker C:But, like, I love doing that kind of stuff, but it's like I would love for the dealers and then like, being able to go educate the dealers and have them, like, push the product.
Speaker C:Like pushing products that are like the right product for their customers and pushing the best products.
Speaker B:You know, that's.
Speaker B:Can I go on a soapbox?
Speaker A:Yeah, go for it.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:I'm going on soapbox.
Speaker B:That is an issue that I've seen for a very, very long time.
Speaker B:And you could tell what stores are not training their employees on being subject matter experts or what employees do not want to be subject matter experts.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I worked behind the counter for a very long time, and I would take the time, and I know this is dating myself, but I would take the time to read magazine articles and keep up with industry.
Speaker B:What, what new products are coming out and YouTube videos and everything like that.
Speaker B:So I could become.
Speaker B:And watching multiple stuff.
Speaker B:And that was a lot of time out of my.
Speaker B:I could be doing something else, but I wanted to be that subject matter expert when it came to everything.
Speaker B:The problem is, is that a lot of these gun stores, you can tell which employees are taking the time or what ranges or retailers have the training programs in place to teach their employees what to do.
Speaker B:And you can tell which ones are getting the most incentives from certain companies.
Speaker B:I hate to put it out that way, but that is the truth.
Speaker B:You can see, you go to XYZ gun shop and there's an incentive from XYZ manufacturer to sell X number of guns, and you get free product.
Speaker B:You can see and tell exactly what shops are pushing that and what shops are not pushing that.
Speaker B:Push the product that's best for the person.
Speaker B:And Kaylee has told her story of her experience on this show.
Speaker B:It is a problem.
Speaker B:I don't know how to fix it.
Speaker B:I don't think I can ever fix it.
Speaker B:But if you work at a retailer, like the.
Speaker B:The stores I worked AT would not let us do the incentive programs just for that reason.
Speaker B:It is, I get why companies do.
Speaker C:It because some of them have some pretty good incentive programs.
Speaker B:They're really great set of programs.
Speaker B:Trust me.
Speaker B:They're really great incentive.
Speaker C:Go into your gun store and if that's the gun they're pushing, they probably have a very good incident program.
Speaker B:But that's an issue.
Speaker B:That is a, a big issue because not everybody fits into a box.
Speaker C:Especially pistols.
Speaker B:Especially pistols.
Speaker B:And you can tell, you know who you are.
Speaker B:I'm pointing to you.
Speaker B:I'm getting angry and I don't get on my soapbox very often.
Speaker B:But this is something you, you are doing a disservice to the community by pushing that lit.
Speaker B:You have to give people the right gun.
Speaker C:And that's like in shooting sports.
Speaker C:I mean like, I mean especially like women in shooting.
Speaker C:I think it's like one of the largest untapped markets and we don't focus on near enough.
Speaker C:It's like in new shooters, like they're going out to go shoot this gun.
Speaker C:They need to have a positive experience in order to like.
Speaker C:And so if you're giving them a, like a full size pistol and they have small hands, like, and that's what pistols I always talk about because like pistols are very specific to the user.
Speaker C:Some guns are made for big hands, some are made for small hands.
Speaker C:Like some like people have like wrist issues that they have to have like certain grip angles.
Speaker C:Like there's all kinds of stuff.
Speaker C:Like there should be a list of questions you should be asking before you ever recommend a product.
Speaker B:Yeah, you 100%.
Speaker B:That's what I used to do.
Speaker B:You ask a list of questions.
Speaker B:Okay, what.
Speaker B:There's, there's so many questions you need to ask.
Speaker B:You can't be showing.
Speaker B:The other one that I really hate is, and because I've seen it so many times is I like XYZ Gun.
Speaker B:That's why you need to buy XYZ Gun without even asking the person what their budget is.
Speaker B:If you walk into my store and I go, Nathan, here's a.
Speaker B:You want a pistol?
Speaker B:Okay, here's a $2,000 Wilson Combat.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:And you're not in dough anything.
Speaker B:What's your expectations?
Speaker B:Oh, wow, wait a minute.
Speaker B:All guns are $2,000.
Speaker B:I can't afford that.
Speaker B:And I leave.
Speaker B:It's, it's a disservice.
Speaker B:It's, it's not being genuine to the community and not helping grow the community.
Speaker B:And luckily we're seeing again, this is another rant.
Speaker B:Luckily we're seeing the, the community diversify and get away from.
Speaker B: The only thing you need is a: Speaker B:Or all you need is a, a Glock 19, or all you need is this.
Speaker B:There's so, so many great options out there now that there's something literally for everybody.
Speaker C:We're seeing a lot of the customers, too, being more educated buyers.
Speaker C:And that's, and that's awesome to see.
Speaker C:But that's like, you're talking about, like, price point.
Speaker C:So, like, one thing that frustrates me, it's like, okay, like, you coming in, like, what's your price point?
Speaker C:It's like, oh, like, I'm really looking for, like, this gun that's like $3,000.
Speaker C:And it's like, okay, like, what capabilities do you need in a gun?
Speaker C:It's like, okay, that gun's not going to give you those capabilities, and that gun's also not worth $3,000.
Speaker C:Like, let's maybe, let's go to, like, this for, like, price point doesn't always equal quality, especially in the firearm space.
Speaker C:Price point.
Speaker C:Like, and that's.
Speaker C:And I always go into, like, people or companies are solving problems that they create.
Speaker C:It's like you're paying their R and D budget to do something different that actually is not changing anything.
Speaker C:Like, it just looks different.
Speaker C:Like, it doesn't mean that it's going to give you any more capabilities and, like, going, like, out of the range, like, plinking with your friends.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, some, some guns are just fun to have and some of them are iconic.
Speaker C:Like, those are, like, collector's items and stuff.
Speaker C:But it's like, if you're talking about, like, something you're defending your life with, like, one, you need a pistol that's going to work.
Speaker C:Like, most likely you're going to use a pistol in the States.
Speaker C:But then if, like, on your AR platform, it's like, you need, you need something that's going to work, and it's going to be like, you can rely on your life with it.
Speaker C:And like, there's some of those guns that are up there in the price point that I would not rely anyone's life on.
Speaker B:I've done my soapbox.
Speaker B:You need to get on a soapbox of some more.
Speaker A:No, I think the, one of the, the best things that, you know, this conversation has been focusing around is that educational piece.
Speaker A:And it's not just from the perspective of a seasoned gun owner, but also for those that are coming into the community who are maybe even not ready to come into the community, but Are getting gun curious, helping someone figure out what is it that they're looking for, what is their desire and what are some of the stigmas that exist that they're having to overcome.
Speaker A:We spend a lot of time as an organization talking about what is the on ramp to get people interested in the second amendment.
Speaker A:Defending the second Amendment.
Speaker A:What is the catalyst when you see a massive amount of new gun owners come into the, into the community?
Speaker A:You know, what was the thought process with the COVID bump in firearms?
Speaker A:What are the reasons that make someone think, okay, I actually need this, I want to get involved with this.
Speaker A:I want to pick this up as a hobby and then meeting their needs educationally.
Speaker A:So this way they feel confident, they feel empowered to start asking the right questions.
Speaker A:So it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:I don't want to say it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:It still matters who's behind the counter, but it doesn't matter as much when, if they're going to a big box store or if they're going to a mom and pop store, they, they know the right questions to ask.
Speaker A:They can kind of start to differentiate what they're looking for so that they're not pigeonholed into.
Speaker A:You know, you're a woman, so you need a revolver or.
Speaker A:Although I think those days are slowly slow, slowly leaving.
Speaker C:Yeah, might be a star of that one.
Speaker A:But, but you know, whatever that, that stigma is or, or whatever that person thinks that they need versus what they actually need.
Speaker C:Yeah, and I think I did too.
Speaker C:Like the second most important thing is like get something that's practical for you that like it fits your hand like that.
Speaker C:You can shoot also go train.
Speaker C:You can have the best piece of equipment that is like hand fitted to you in your body.
Speaker C:If you do not know how to use it and you need to use it in a high stress situation, you will drop the mag.
Speaker C:You will do like, you will not be able to actually do anything with it.
Speaker B:Thank you for saying that.
Speaker C:Training.
Speaker C:Training is the most important thing I think in this industry.
Speaker B:I got in an argument with somebody the other day about.
Speaker B:So there was a, we were talking about a, a specific gun and it came with one mag.
Speaker B:I was like, this is one mag.
Speaker B:Even though it's a bare minimum, it should come with two.
Speaker B:Two should be bare minimum across the industry and industry.
Speaker B:Hear me out.
Speaker B:It should actually be three.
Speaker B:I'm not going to jump on John.
Speaker C:Patton's soapbox, but I think it's three too.
Speaker C:Yeah, we ship them with one, but I think it should be three.
Speaker C:We're trying to figure that out.
Speaker B:I, we had this argument and he's like, well, I only carry with one mag and that's all I need.
Speaker B:And I'm like, have you taken any training?
Speaker B:He's like, no.
Speaker B:I'm like, go to go take a training class.
Speaker B:Go take a training class.
Speaker B:Because you'll, I can, I can argue with you.
Speaker B:And so I'm blue in the face about the importance of carrying two mags and why carrying two mags is important.
Speaker B:But you need to go learn for yourself because I can sit here and preach on my soapbox and yell and scream and get.
Speaker B:Go take a training class.
Speaker B:Training is it will all your preconceived notions of how a gunfight is going to go goes out the window when you take a training class.
Speaker C:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:I'm going to make a caveat with a quality trainer.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:With a quality trainer.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:That is very, very key.
Speaker C:Don't even know how to explain how I know that one.
Speaker C:But there's been multiple.
Speaker C:We had a sales guy, this is just going to just kind of knock on my company a little bit.
Speaker C:We had a sales guy once that he did a bunch of training.
Speaker C:I wouldn't let that guy touch a gun in our shop.
Speaker C:And he was training people of how to use them.
Speaker C:And I was like, whenever I found that out, he.
Speaker C:Well, there was lots of things that went wrong with that whole Sidnet scenario.
Speaker C:But yeah, there are some people out there that are like, I'm a licensed trainer by such and such organization.
Speaker C:It's like, yeah, you don't know how to train people.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I can also walk on that alarm.
Speaker B:No, I've taken it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I've taken the class.
Speaker B:You're speaking of them.
Speaker B:The big class.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:The organization and the people who I was in with in the classroom, there was a few of them where I was like a new.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:Like the people skills alone.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker C:Well, so I mean when we teach training classes, so we occasionally have pop up training classes, we need to do more of them because we do harp on training a lot.
Speaker C:Ron always does them.
Speaker C:I mean ron has like 30 years of running behind a gun and like, I mean I think most of the time we like we load our magazines to five mags because like we're not training you how to shoot, we're training you how to like use your equipment.
Speaker C:Like you were going to test everything.
Speaker C:You're going to touch things multiple times, you're going to learn how to shoot.
Speaker C:You're going to learn how to shoot really well, but you're going to learn how to reload.
Speaker C:You're going to learn how to, like, get behind cover and reload.
Speaker C:And like, you're going to be shooting, moving, communicating, and I mean, you're also going to learn how to shoot.
Speaker C:But, oh, man, there's so many trainers out there.
Speaker C:Like, I, we, we rant about with cqb.
Speaker C:So, like, people love doing like, the tactical training, all that stuff.
Speaker C:I think it's very, very good if you want to like, learn how to get out of your house, like in or like, out of a thing.
Speaker C:Like, I mean, CQB is like a great thing to do and like, be like, operator for a day.
Speaker C:But, like, there's, they put so much science into this stuff and it's like people.
Speaker C:And we were talking with guys who've done it professionally and it's like, it's like cut a client or people will come up, be like, hey, what are you going to do in this scenario?
Speaker C:Like, we're going to throw grenades in there.
Speaker C:Like, we're not going in that building.
Speaker C:I mean, it's like, it's like, what is it?
Speaker C:It's like speed, stealth and violence of action.
Speaker C:It's like, if you don't have, it's like the three things you have to have.
Speaker C:And if you don't have one, you overcompensate on the others.
Speaker C:And it's like, if you don't have, like, if you don't have speed or stealth, violence of action, we're just going to drop a bomb on it.
Speaker C:Like, you don't always go into the room.
Speaker C:And that's like something I don't think people train properly.
Speaker C:And then like, and also like any type of tactical training, I'm a huge believer in, like, talk to someone who's actually been in a gunfight.
Speaker C:I don't think that, like, learning how to shoot on like a flat range or like in your, like, how to shoot a pistol, you necessarily have to have someone who's been in a firefight, just someone who knows the fundamentals really, really well.
Speaker C:Because the fundamentals are the most important thing.
Speaker C:And you always go back to fundamentals.
Speaker C:And that's like, even like with guys that have been shooting for 20 years, we start every range day with the fundamentals just going through, like, on the line shoot to like, switch, pistol, like just basic safety things.
Speaker C:Um, but yeah, it's it because like, having like, the practical experience of like, being in a gunfight, I think for a lot of the tactical applications helps.
Speaker B:Well, I, I learned.
Speaker B:I learned the hard way.
Speaker B:I was in a carbine class with a good friend of mine, a great instructor, highly recommend.
Speaker B:I've already talked about him a number of times.
Speaker B:So I'm in the carbine class and we're do.
Speaker B:I learned more stuff just going through that class than I have for.
Speaker B:First off, there's a reason why you always bring a backup to a class.
Speaker B:My gun completely went down the trigger got a burr on the inside and locked up.
Speaker B:So I was out.
Speaker B:Learned that I cannot shoot a rifle left handed so I have to transition over because I cannot see down the optic whatsoever.
Speaker B:Learned so many things that you don't think about when you.
Speaker B:When you're just sitting there in a bay shooting, going through the motions and the small things when it comes to that.
Speaker B:And then on top of that, we were.
Speaker B:I've taken a number of classes.
Speaker B:I'm still learning to this day.
Speaker B:Even though I have taken training classes and done this.
Speaker B:I'm still learning.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker B:We did airsoft at an event the one time and we're CQB forgot Hide overboard.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Simple as that.
Speaker B:Hide overboard.
Speaker B:Totally forgot about it.
Speaker B:It's things even that somebody that I've taken the classes and I pride myself at being proficient with a firearm in this I forgot the smallest little detail of sight overboard and lost the fight.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And that's why training is very important.
Speaker C:No, it is.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:So Ron, he was hoping to be here today too, but he, he's off training.
Speaker C:He's.
Speaker C:He's got like a contract guys that are going over seas to do some humanitarian work.
Speaker C:And so he's doing like they're trying to push all these guys through all this training.
Speaker C:And so that was one thing that like they had all the guns that they were doing.
Speaker C:Like they're really qualifying guys to go overseas.
Speaker C:And so he, he was telling me on the like when I was driving over that they had like guns were blowing up on them.
Speaker C:Like buffers were exploding.
Speaker C:Like I'm like, I've never heard of a buffer exploding.
Speaker C:Like, dude, I don't know what it is.
Speaker C:It was like paper mache.
Speaker C:I think they loaded like these things, like stuffed them with paper.
Speaker C:I was like, they did what?
Speaker C:And he was like, I have no idea because you need to see this.
Speaker C:And like you send me pictures and I can't explain it but like using your equipment, like I. I have a staccato XC.
Speaker C: I know that gun can go: Speaker C:Like, and it will not go more than that.
Speaker C:I've tested it like five different times and it's around 17.
Speaker C:It's not an exact number every single time.
Speaker C:But, like, knowing the limitations of your equipment, I mean, that is.
Speaker C:That is huge.
Speaker B:Well, that brings up another point.
Speaker B:Test firing your guns.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Getting a proper bzo too.
Speaker C:That's kind of like a big deal.
Speaker C:There's all kinds of stuff.
Speaker C:You should go train.
Speaker C:Everybody needs to go train.
Speaker B:Nathan, we appreciate you being on the show and as a thank you, we have our gift from, from our, our guests from Palmetto State Armory and aacmo.
Speaker B:So you'll be receiving this after the show.
Speaker B:So thank you again, Palmetto State Armory, for providing that to all our guests.
Speaker B:Go ahead and shout out socials where people can find you all that stuff.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:So MitchellDefense.com is our website, our social media, Our main one's Instagram, so it's just Mitchell defense.
Speaker C:Super easy to find.
Speaker C:You have to type the entire thing in in order for us to pop up.
Speaker C:It's our logo.
Speaker C:We have a YouTube channel.
Speaker C:Go find it.
Speaker C:We're eventually going to do something on it.
Speaker C:I probably haven't put a video up like two years.
Speaker C:But then also Riker usa, we also do a lot of stuff with Riker usa.
Speaker C:So their social media and website as well, usually that's the best places to find us.
Speaker B:Yeah, Ron, where are you?
Speaker B:We miss you.
Speaker C:Yeah, me want to set aside like two hours for him.
Speaker C:He will talk.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Thank you everyone for listening to this week's episode of State of the Second podcast.
Speaker A:Be sure to, like, share, subscribe, hit the bell notifications and leave a five star review on all podcasting platforms.
Speaker A:We appreciate you and we'll see you next week.
Speaker B: t forget to join us for Goals: Speaker B:We hope to see you there.
