Episode 19

The Origins of Palmetto State Armory, Bump Stocks and More! | #19 Jamin McCallum Palmetto State Armory

Jamin McCallum, co-founder of Palmetto State Armory, joins State of the Second hosts John and Kaylee to trace PSA from a garage idea into what he calls the number one firearms and accessories website in the world. A CPA by training, Jamin came home from his second deployment with a traumatic brain injury that left him unable to focus on tax work. He quit, told his wife they were going to start a gun company, and pulled his brother out of a shoe store to join him. The first plan was to make 6.8 ammo and compete with Silver State Armory, but the licensing and equipment were too complex. They pivoted to selling Magpul PMAGs on a website they built in a sandwich shop, did $221 in their first month in April 2008, and were doing about a million dollars a month by that November.

Jamin walks through the moments that pushed the company to each new level: a "you lie" engraved lower tied to Congressman Joe Wilson that the New York Times and Huffington Post linked to, which re-indexed the whole site; a deal with FN in Columbia to take over barrel production that left them swimming in barrels right before Sandy Hook, which launched their AR-15 line; and the shift from assembling parts to making their own. PSA now runs about 2,000 uppers and 1,000 handguns a day, makes roughly a million bolt carrier groups and 1.2 million barrels a year, employs 50 full-time engineers, and built its own ammo plant in West Columbia after repeated ammo scares left it unable to get rounds even to test-fire guns. The company also picked up AAC suppressors and the H&R brand out of the Remington bankruptcy.

The back half turns to policy. Jamin frames PSA's whole mission as spreading freedom, keeping guns affordable so more people get into the hobby before any future ban can take hold. He and Kaylee dig into the ATF redefining rules by edict, the bump stock ban, the pistol brace ban, and the new rule targeting private sales, arguing bureaucrats are writing what amounts to law without going through the House, Senate, and the President. They make the case that comment periods matter, that lawsuits run hundreds of thousands of dollars and are funded by taxpayers on both sides, and that gun owners have to stay tenacious because the government has unlimited funds to wear them down. Kaylee highlights GOA's round-up-at-checkout partnership with PSA feeding its Second Amendment preservation fund and the group's growing campus presence, and both close convinced the culture is shifting toward seeing the right to self-defense as a civil right.

Links

Questions this episode answers

How did Palmetto State Armory get started, and what was its first product?

Jamin McCallum and his brother formed Palmetto State Armory in 2008 after an early plan to make 6.8 ammunition proved too complex. They pivoted to selling Magpul PMAGs on a website built in a sandwich shop, doing $221 their first month in April 2008 and about a million dollars a month by that November.

Why did Jamin McCallum leave his career as a CPA to start a gun company?

A CPA by training, Jamin came home from his second deployment with a traumatic brain injury that left him unable to focus on tax work. He quit, told his wife they were starting a gun company, and pulled his brother out of a shoe store to join him.

How did the "you lie" lower tied to Congressman Joe Wilson change PSA's web traffic?

PSA made a "you lie" engraved lower tied to Congressman Joe Wilson that the New York Times and Huffington Post linked to. Those links re-indexed the whole site and pushed it to a new level of visibility.

How did PSA's barrel deal with FN and the timing of Sandy Hook launch its AR-15 line?

PSA struck a deal with FN in Columbia to take over barrel production, which left the company swimming in barrels right before Sandy Hook. That timing and supply launched its AR-15 line.

How many uppers, handguns, barrels, and bolt carrier groups does PSA produce?

PSA runs about 2,000 uppers and 1,000 handguns a day, and makes roughly a million bolt carrier groups and 1.2 million barrels a year. It also employs about 50 full-time engineers.

Why did PSA build its own ammunition plant?

Repeated ammo scares left PSA unable to get rounds even to test-fire its guns, so it built its own ammunition plant in West Columbia. The move secured its own supply instead of depending on outside sources.

What did PSA acquire out of the Remington bankruptcy?

PSA picked up the AAC suppressor line and the H&R brand out of the Remington bankruptcy, adding them to a lineup that grew from assembling parts to making its own products.

Why does Jamin say comment periods and lawsuits matter in fighting ATF rules like the bump stock and brace bans?

Jamin argues the ATF redefines rules by edict on bump stocks, pistol braces, and private sales, writing what amounts to law without Congress. He says comment periods matter and lawsuits cost hundreds of thousands, so gun owners must stay tenacious against a government with unlimited funds.

Chapters

  • 00:00 — Meeting Jamin and PSA's scale
  • 00:28 — From CPA to starting a gun company
  • 02:33 — The ammo idea that became PMAGs
  • 04:00 — Early growth to a million a month
  • 08:38 — The "you lie" lower goes viral
  • 12:04 — The FN barrel deal and Sandy Hook
  • 18:15 — Build-it-yourself uppers and handguns
  • 20:01 — Making products and the road to SHOT Show
  • 24:04 — Spread freedom and the 1986 machine gun ban
  • 28:46 — Affordable price points and the 90% market
  • 35:53 — AAC, the ammo plant, and H&R
  • 42:38 — GOA partnership and the round-up fund
  • 44:46 — Bump stocks, braces, and ATF by edict
  • 47:47 — Why comment periods matter
  • 50:08 — Staying in the fight and shifting culture
  • 1:00:36 — Wrap-up and SHOT Show teaser

About the guest

Jamin McCallum is a co-founder of Palmetto State Armory, which he describes as the number one firearms and accessories website in the world. He is a CPA by education and trade. He served in the Army, deployed twice, and took IED blasts on his second deployment that left him with a traumatic brain injury. He started the company with his brother Josiah, forming it in February 2008. He later joined with Julian Wilson (Congressman Joe Wilson's son) and Ed LaRocque to form JJE, the ownership group behind PSA. He taught at the University of South Carolina in the evenings and served in the National Guard as a company commander. He grew up outside Philadelphia.

Key quotes

"So I just, I quit my job, told my wife, you know, hey, we're gonna start a gun company." — Jamin McCallum
"But that's kind of the story of how it all got started." — Jamin McCallum
"We went from assembling products to making products." — Jamin McCallum
"our vision is to spread freedom" — Jamin McCallum
"if you want your freedom, you got to be more tenacious and more dedicated than the people trying to take it away" — Jamin McCallum
"It is only an echo chamber that they control if we refuse to speak." — Kaylee
"The right to defend yourself is a civil right." — Jamin McCallum
Transcript
Host:

So we have jamin with Palmetto State Army.

Host:

Jamin, how are you today?

Jamin:

Pretty good, how are you?

Host:

Good.

Host:

Can you give us a little bit of backstory about you and you know the backstory of psa, which is the largest or one of the largest gun store slash manufacturers in the country?

Jamin:

It's the largest or this the number one firearms and accessories website in the world.

Host:

That's amazing.

Jamin:

Yeah, it's kind of interesting story.

Jamin:

Let's see.

Jamin:

I got back from my second deployment, I'm a CPA by trade, by education.

Jamin:

And I got back and I had taken a couple IED blasts on my second deployment, direct hits.

Jamin:

And I came back with, it's a traumatic brain injury, but turns into like a really, really bad concussion.

Jamin:

And I came back and I basically got adult add.

Jamin:

And so like I went from being able to do, you know, very complex tax returns for large corporations and you know, estate and trust and everything worked to I would sit down, look at my monitor and 15 minutes later I couldn't, just couldn't do it.

Jamin:

I couldn't focus anymore.

Jamin:

It's like a severe adult add.

Jamin:

So I did, I did it when I got back, I did it for about a year and a half and I just got to the point I was like, I can't do this.

Jamin:

So I quit.

Jamin:

But I took a job at another firm and I was like, well, maybe this firm just sucks, right?

Jamin:

Maybe I need a new firm.

Jamin:

So I was there about a year and I was like, I can't do this.

Jamin:

So I just, I quit my job, told my wife, you know, hey, we're gonna start a gun company.

Jamin:

And she was very upset because we had helped each other through college.

Jamin:

So, you know, she was like, well, why did I, you know, six years of college and you know, we met when I was in the army enlisted, I was 17 when we met.

Jamin:

And so, you know, and we went through this journey.

Jamin:

I got out of the army, we put each other through college.

Jamin:

So she was very upset.

Jamin:

You know, we got to this point and now you're quitting your job and trust me, this is going to work out, this is going to be great.

Jamin:

She's very skeptical, so she obviously kept her job.

Jamin:

I taught at the University of South Carolina in the evenings and I was in the National Guard as company commander.

Jamin:

So they would let me come in more during the week to try and get some extra money.

Jamin:

But I quit my full time job, had those part time jobs and it was me and I talked to my brother who was managing a shoe store of Course, there's all these, you know, jokes about managing shoe store and Al Bundy and everything.

Jamin:

I was like, don't have to be Al Bundy anymore.

Jamin:

We're gonna start a gun company.

Jamin:

And so he's like, okay.

Jamin:

So after about a month, convinced him to quit.

Jamin:

And we started the idea.

Jamin:

The first idea was there was a company called Silver State Armory.

Jamin:

They were in Nevada, and they made 6.8ammo.

Jamin:

And I didn't.

Jamin:

I was critical with.

Jamin:

I thought the 6.8 round could really take off.

Jamin:

Was kind of critical of what they were doing.

Jamin:

So I was like, we're going to start the Palmetto State Armory to compete.

Jamin:

Compete with the Silver State Armory.

Jamin:

And we're going to make ammo.

Jamin:

We're going to make ammo better.

Jamin:

And the only problem was, once we got into.

Jamin:

My brother and I got into, like, how in the world do you make ammo?

Jamin:

And the licenses and the equipment, like, we probably should have thought that first, but we didn't at all.

Jamin:

We just were going to do it, and it was very expensive, and the licensing was very complex and the regulations.

Jamin:

So we had both quit our jobs.

Jamin:

And we were talking, okay, what do we do?

Jamin:

I said, well, magpul has this new pmag.

Jamin:

Why don't we get some of those and we'll put them on our website?

Jamin:

So the CPA firm that I quit at, I was still friends with the IT guy there.

Jamin:

And we sat at a sandwich shop, set up the palmetto statearmy.com website.

Jamin:

And he showed me, like, if you want to put something on, you do that.

Jamin:

You know, show us how to do it.

Jamin:

So we caught.

Jamin:

My brother and I, we got some PMAGs and we put them on the website.

Jamin:

So we were selling pmax and that was it.

Jamin:

And then kind of got into other things.

Jamin:

But that's kind of the story of how it all got started.

Jamin:

That was:

Jamin:

Yeah.

Host:

So that was roughly, like, 14, 15 years ago.

Jamin:

Yeah.

Host:

How has the growth been since then?

Host:

I mean, you guys went from that.

Jamin:

To, like, number one, a lot of gray hair.

Jamin:

Now.

Jamin:

When I first started, people like, wow, you're so young now.

Jamin:

They're just like, yeah, well, you look about right.

Jamin:

It's been hectic.

Jamin:

It's been a lot of fun, and it's been very challenging, the growth.

Jamin:

ur first sale was in April of:

Jamin:

ed the company in February of:

Jamin:

Our first sale was able because we went through, like, 60 days of trying to figure out, like, what are we going to do?

Jamin:

Okay, we can't just immediately make an ammo plant.

Jamin:

In fact, it wouldn't be until a decade later that we would start an ammo plant.

Jamin:

Gs and all that, it was April:

Jamin:

I was like, this is great.

Jamin:

I mean, not going to live off of that, but we got something.

Jamin:

And then just the website just started, just started slowly taking off.

Jamin:

And then we started advertising on air15.com.

Jamin:

So I think next month we did like 7,000 in sales.

Jamin:

And it was like just a steady 7,000.

Jamin:

15,000.

Jamin:

We're like, okay, we're getting some success here.

Jamin:

And so the summers in the industry are incredibly slow.

Jamin:

So what happens is if you own a bunch of inventory that you bought in the busy season, you probably overpaid for it and you're sitting with a lot of in the summer looking for cash.

Jamin:

So we hadn't really bought much inventory except for a couple of magazines.

Jamin:

summer was like June, July of:

Jamin:

My brother and I, we had basically gotten like sort of a small inheritance.

Jamin:

It wasn't crazy, but it was enough to start a company.

Jamin:

And so he put his money in, I put my money in.

Jamin:

And we were like calling people up, hey, we want to buy whatever, right?

Jamin:

And we have some cash, we'll pay cash.

Jamin:

So we had amassed a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of good items, you know, a bunch of magazines.

Jamin:

We had purchased some purvi ammunition.

Jamin:

We called them up and they sold us, you know, probably like 10 pallets.

Jamin:

And.

Jamin:

But it was, it was slow.

Jamin:

And so we started selling that and we would, we would.

Jamin:

The orders were going, you know, 15,000amonth and 25,000 or so.

Jamin:

time we hit like November of:

Jamin:

It was turning really fast.

Jamin:

We're like, holy cow, this is nuts, right?

Jamin:

And then like the next like couple, like year or so, it just kept growing because Obama got elected.

Jamin:

And of course we were all rightfully concerned about losing our rights.

Jamin:

And then it kind of crested and it like died off.

Jamin:

And so then we were sitting there and we had, we were doing this.

Jamin:

I had a 50 acre farm in the northeast side of Columbia.

Jamin:

And so we had no overhead, right?

Jamin:

We were just doing, we had a pole barn and really big garage.

Jamin:

So.

Jamin:

And we weren't taking any salaries.

Jamin:

We really had zero overhead.

Jamin:

So it was all profit.

Jamin:

All the market was Profit.

Jamin:

We put it back into new products.

Jamin:

Well, when it slowed down, everybody had made so much money, they didn't care about, like, cutting their losses on some extra inventory.

Jamin:

So we took the money that we had and we started saying, okay, well, now we're going to be a deal website.

Jamin:

So we'll.

Jamin:

So if you have anything and you're overstocked on whatever, we'll buy it from you cash.

Jamin:

And then we'll.

Jamin:

So say something's like, selling it 40 bucks and you pay 20 for it.

Jamin:

Well, we'll give you cash.

Jamin:

We'll buy it, take it off your hands for, like, say, 15, and we'll sell for 20.

Jamin:

So we turned from.

Jamin:

We pivoted because it wasn't real busy to a deal website.

Jamin:

And we thought we were rolling with that pretty good.

Jamin:

And we're just really doing mags and ammo that we could get our hands on.

Jamin:

And, you know, because, like, Winchester wouldn't ship us a truckload of ammo.

Jamin:

Not to my garage, right?

Jamin:

So.

Jamin:

And then.

Jamin:

And then there's a company called DS Arms out of Illinois.

Jamin:

We bought.

Jamin:

There's a magazine called the Fusel magazine.

Jamin:

And it was like solid steel.

Jamin:

I mean, literally, it was like a brick.

Jamin:

You could kill somebody with it.

Jamin:

And they were selling because every magazine was selling until they weren't.

Jamin:

And they had pallets of these things.

Jamin:

And the guy's name is Mark Christiansen.

Jamin:

He called.

Jamin:

He's like, hey, I know you guys, like, do deals on your website.

Jamin:

You know, we take a couple of pallets of these mags.

Jamin:

And I was like, okay, but we're not going to pay anywhere close to what you paid for them.

Jamin:

So that's fine.

Jamin:

We just want to get rid of them.

Jamin:

So we bought a pallet, and they did.

Jamin:

Okay.

Jamin:

So I was like, okay, we'll get another pallet.

Jamin:

And on that other pallet, there was a box of buffer tubes on it, like for an AR15.

Jamin:

And it was about the same size as the box of the magazine.

Jamin:

So we were opening up the boxes.

Jamin:

So, yeah, there's buffer tubes in here.

Jamin:

I called Mark.

Jamin:

I was like, hey, you sent us some buffer tubes by accident.

Jamin:

He's like, well, just keep them.

Jamin:

And we had our first employee.

Jamin:

We had one employee that worked for us, still works for us 14 years later.

Jamin:

His name's Jonathan.

Jamin:

He's like, well, we should put that on our website.

Jamin:

Okay, so put it on the website sold that day.

Jamin:

So I called him back.

Jamin:

I was like, hey, how much do these cost?

Jamin:

He's $10.

Jamin:

We put them up for 20.

Jamin:

That's a really good margin.

Jamin:

So.

Jamin:

So we bought some more and put them up.

Jamin:

It was like, AR15 parts sell really, really well.

Jamin:

And so I was like, okay, what other part can I get?

Jamin:

And so we just kept.

Jamin:

We just kept adding, you know, call up mark, what do you have?

Jamin:

And then I started calling up other companies, figuring out people really like AR15 parts.

Jamin:

So that kind of went on for a little while.

Jamin:

And then the next big thing was.

Jamin:

So we did pretty well.

Jamin:

Things kind of leveled off and we were actually pretty happy.

Jamin:

I think we started paying ourselves salaries and it was like a cool experiment.

Jamin:

And then so Joe Wilson yelled, you lie at Obama.

Jamin:

I don't know if you remember that or not.

Jamin:

So he's given his State of the Union address and he gets up and he yells, you lie.

Jamin:

Right?

Jamin:

He's like all angry and everything.

Jamin:

Well, it.

Jamin:

Well, what happened was we did a lower that we had contracted out because we had started getting lower as Brandon with our name.

Jamin:

We weren't making them at the time.

Jamin:

Now we make thousands a day.

Jamin:

But at the time we were having someone else make them for us.

Jamin:

And so we had one with the serial number Ulai and we put some engraving on it and everything.

Jamin:

And so we only made like 100 of them.

Jamin:

However, there's a local newspaper that picked up on.

Jamin:

It's called the Free Times.

Jamin:

It's not in business anymore.

Jamin:

It's like the Post and Courier now.

Jamin:

And that guy was like asking me about it.

Jamin:

And so it was like, really not a big deal.

Jamin:

We were selling a couple in the stores thing.

Jamin:

We put like 20 online.

Jamin:

And so that guy called the Huffington Post, who called the New York Times, and it was everywhere.

Jamin:

Assassin rifle.

Jamin:

And I was like, what the heck?

Jamin:

This was a joke because he's our congressman in South Carolina.

Jamin:

So then the New York Times, Huffington Post, every whacked out liberal website that has a ton of web traffic, LinkedIn to our website.

Jamin:

And what that does on your website, depending on what links in, it creates more web traffic because your searches become relevant.

Jamin:

So if you're searching for something, we might be on page 10.

Jamin:

Well, now that we're in with the New York Times, like we're.

Jamin:

The whole website got re indexed.

Jamin:

So we were selling, you know, decent amount to like just killing it.

Jamin:

And we're like, whoa, what in the world happened?

Jamin:

This is nuts.

Jamin:

And that was like the next catalyst to the next level.

Jamin:

So our web traffic is kind of like going like, this is a shot, like straight up.

Jamin:

So we were like, wow, this is cool.

Jamin:

So we tried to do another one.

Jamin:

We called it the Nobo.

Jamin:

It was like the NoBo 12.

Jamin:

Like no Obama 12.

Jamin:

And like we were like, we're going to have this go again.

Jamin:

And the media wouldn't bite.

Jamin:

It never really went anywhere.

Jamin:

We're trying to get them criticized us again.

Jamin:

So it was kind of an interesting experience.

Jamin:

And then I know it's a big, big thing.

Jamin:

And then we got to a point where, you know, we wanted to start making things ourselves.

Jamin:

I'll give you another story.

Jamin:

So we had, we had been selling the parts for a little while that other people made but we didn't have a barrel supplier like at all.

Jamin:

And because I was assembling, we didn't make anything.

Jamin:

I was having other people make the parts for us or they were selling as parts.

Jamin:

I don't know if they're actually making them.

Jamin:

But we had a lower now made with our logo on it.

Jamin:

We had most of the parts except a barrel.

Jamin:

Well, we had a guy who worked at the first.

Jamin:

Our first store was 200 Business park in Columbia.

Jamin:

It was the front end of our warehouse.

Jamin:

And in fact the warehouse, it was our first warehouse that we built.

Jamin:

Got us out of our garage.

Jamin:

We bought this warehouse and the front office area.

Jamin:

People would start to knock on the door, hey, I ordered online.

Jamin:

Can I pick it up?

Jamin:

Or I know this is your website, can I come in and shop?

Jamin:

So we tell you it was like 900 square feet and we knocked down the walls and put in some shelves and that ended up being our first store.

Jamin:

Well, that store was not too far from FN in Columbia.

Jamin:

It was right down the road from it.

Jamin:

So we had FN employees.

Jamin:

They would send the guns in there to do the transfers.

Jamin:

And then someone would work for us part time in the evenings for extra money.

Jamin:

And so we had this one FN employee.

Jamin:

His name was Chuck Norris.

Jamin:

Obviously not his real name, don't remember his real name, but he went by Chuck Norris and he would work there.

Jamin:

And so in order to leave the building, I would be back in the warehouse.

Jamin:

It was a big warehouse in the back.

Jamin:

And walk through the front area where the store was and say goodnight to everybody, hey, I'm heading out.

Jamin:

It's like five, six, whatever.

Jamin:

And so he said to me one time, we're walking out.

Jamin:

He's like, hey, I need a full time job here.

Jamin:

FN just lost the military contract.

Jamin:

And I was like, well that could be interesting.

Jamin:

We don't have barrels.

Jamin:

You guys have a massive barrel shop.

Jamin:

Well, tell them we're gonna buy the barrels, tell them we'll take over where the military left off.

Jamin:

Of course, like, not realizing the volume and quantity and all that stuff.

Jamin:

And he's like, yeah, I'll let them know.

Jamin:

So the very next day, Chuck Norris is there, and I walk through, and Jean Pierre, the Belgian guy who runs the barrel shop, is there doing a transfer.

Jamin:

And they called him J.P.

Jamin:

and Chuck Norris is like, hey, there's J.P.

Jamin:

i was like, who's J.P.

Jamin:

the guy that runs the barrel shop that you talked about yesterday.

Jamin:

I was like, okay, cool.

Jamin:

So, hey, we want to buy all your barrels, take over.

Jamin:

Because they were doing layoffs.

Jamin:

And we're like, hey, let's take over that business.

Jamin:

And he's like, well, that's a lot of barrels.

Jamin:

We're a big company.

Jamin:

We absolutely were not.

Jamin:

But we were very arrogant at the time.

Jamin:

So in the meantime, Julian Wilson, who is Joe Wilson's son, this is after the Ulai incident.

Jamin:

We had been friends in college.

Jamin:

We'd done Clemson ROTC together.

Jamin:

He had bought in and become an owner.

Jamin:

And then Ed Larocque, because we were doing construction projects and working with contractors, was terrible.

Jamin:

So we.

Jamin:

Julian was like, hey, if we're going to do this big, we need a contractor to be on board.

Jamin:

So that born into JJ Capital, Jamin, Julian and Ed.

Jamin:

So it was me.

Jamin:

And then they brought my brother out.

Jamin:

My brother Josiah, who you talked to, he still works for the company.

Jamin:

He's not an owner, but.

Jamin:

So they bought Josiah out, and that turned into J.J.E.

Jamin:

jamin Julian.

Jamin:

Julian is, you know, Joe Wilson's son, the congressman.

Jamin:

Yell, you lie.

Jamin:

He wasn't owner at the time, but now he is.

Jamin:

So Julian's dad, Joe Wilson, had had some connection with fn.

Jamin:

I think they presented him a gun at some point and everything, being the congressman.

Jamin:

And Ed had worked at FN for years in the chrome shop before he started becoming general contractor.

Jamin:

And now he was our general contractor for our business.

Jamin:

In fact, when you go to the Myrtle beach store, which isn't too far from here, beautiful facility.

Jamin:

You're going to love it.

Jamin:

Well, Ed did all that.

Jamin:

He took the old McClatchy newspaper printing building and turned it into probably the nicest gun store in the country.

Jamin:

Ed's fantastic, good to have on board.

Jamin:

So we go over there and we have John, Pierre, JP he introduced John Louis, who's the CEO of fn.

Jamin:

And they're talking to Julian like, your dad's the guy we gave the gun to.

Jamin:

And like, hey, Ed, good to see you.

Jamin:

You worked here.

Jamin:

And so ignorantly, they were like, yeah, sold.

Jamin:

You want all the barrels you got, you know, we'll make you every barrel you want.

Jamin:

And we're like, yeah, we want those.

Jamin:

And so I remember, and I probably, probably don't want to hear this because we still buy a lot of stuff from them, but we had like a little van.

Jamin:

We'd go over and pick it up and it would just.

Jamin:

You put pallet to barrels.

Jamin:

The van was like dragging the ground coming back over to place.

Jamin:

I remember the first shipment we picked up was like $400,000.

Jamin:

And we were not that big.

Jamin:

In fact, I pulled the numbers and went, why do we do that, right?

Jamin:

But we were trying to build guns and we were building like one or two a day.

Jamin:

And upper is just a small handful a day.

Jamin:

And I remember, I think it was like August.

Jamin:

And then by September, you have 30 day terms on it.

Jamin:

They're like ready to do another ship.

Jamin:

And they call me like, hey, you've paid like half of this.

Jamin:

Like, please send the other half.

Jamin:

I'm like, well, yeah, we'll send that out right away.

Jamin:

But then they had sent another shipment, like, wow, this is a lot.

Jamin:

And you know, and talking to the guys, trying to figure out, you know, maybe we need to cut back on this.

Jamin:

And then sales did start to pick up into the fall, so we paid it, but they were shipping way more.

Jamin:

And I remember somewhere around like November, because I thought, well, we got Black Friday coming up, you know, we'll be okay.

Jamin:

We had way more.

Jamin:

And they called again, like, hey, you're a little late on your payment.

Jamin:

We're getting a little nervous.

Jamin:

And so we didn't cry uncle just because I didn't want to hurt their relationship with fn, but we were just swimming in these barrels, right?

Jamin:

Well then unfortunately, Sandy Hook happened and we were one of the only companies with a large stockpile of barrels.

Jamin:

And then that really launched our AR15 line because we had all the other pieces and we were able to have product available in a very unfortunate time for the country to sell.

Jamin:

that was, I think December of:

Jamin:

And then FN continued to help us out sending more barrels and it turned into a really strong relationship.

Jamin:

They started making more products for us and we still from them today.

Jamin:

So that's kind of a little bit of a history.

Jamin:

There's so much more, but I don't want to take over the whole.

Jamin:

Yeah, some of the history.

Jamin:

That's, that's some of the history.

Host:

No, that's great to Know, because I was going to ask like, when did you guys start doing complete guns?

Host:

And you kind of answered that with, with your complete guns.

Host:

I mean, what, what's a normal day for a builder at your facility look like to put out an upper?

Host:

Like, are we talking like 10 uppers a day or are we talking.

Jamin:

We do, and it depends on the upper.

Jamin:

We're doing about 2,000 uppers a day.

Jamin:

And roughly, I mean, that's just AR15.

Jamin:

Of course we do, you know, probably.

Jamin:

And again, we do a lot of our stuff.

Jamin:

So we're like a builder yourself company.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And we do sell complete guns, but so most of ours are sold, you know, customer by a receiver and then they'll buy a kit to build it themselves.

Jamin:

Same thing with our handguns.

Jamin:

So like our daggers and rocks, people generally will like to buy the frame and then they'll buy the parts to build it because first of all, it's fun.

Jamin:

Second, while you get to get the features that you want.

Jamin:

So we don't sell:

Jamin:

So somebody might buy like another brand lower and assemble it.

Jamin:

So I think lowers were well over a thousand a day.

Jamin:

On lowers.

Jamin:

We sell more uppers and kits than we do actual lowers just because people buy other brand lowers and assemble them.

Jamin:

So about 2,000 a day there.

Jamin:

About 1,000 a day of handguns, about 3,000 a day.

Jamin:

Again, they're done differently.

Jamin:

People will buy like our dagger frame and build it with a slide or they'll buy, you know, Polymer 80 or SCT or whatever brand.

Jamin:

But we sell just tons of the slides and the parts of the barrels.

Host:

When it comes to you guys, let me start with parts for the website.

Host:

When it comes to like parts for the website and things that you go, what?

Host:

There's hundreds of new accessories and cool guy stuff coming out every year.

Host:

Where do you go, okay, we're going to buy this or we're going to buy that or what goes into adding products to your website?

Jamin:

So there's two sides to that.

Jamin:

One is our products.

Jamin:

And so, and I'll kind of do a little journey from where we were with FN to where we are now.

Jamin:

We got to the point for it was a birthday party that I had and the CEO of the company was a major supplier, couldn't make it because his private jet had maintenance issues.

Jamin:

And I was thinking, I don't have a private jet, I should probably have a private jet.

Jamin:

But I don't.

Jamin:

So clearly they're making way more money than we are.

Jamin:

So I was like, we're going to start making products.

Jamin:

And it was really the next evolution of the company.

Jamin:

We went from assembling products to making products.

Jamin:

And we did some by starting manufacturing businesses and some we acquired.

Jamin:

So we make about a million BCGs a year.

Jamin:

We make about 1.2 million barrels a year.

Jamin:

We just started making everything right.

Jamin:

And then from there we wanted to go from.

Jamin:

We're making it every year and of course we make.

Jamin:

And we supply other companies too.

Jamin:

It's not all for our consumption, but like say you have an AR15 company or want to start one, you can call us up, we'll sell you BCGs.

Jamin:

And we do that for a lot of people.

Jamin:

So.

Jamin:

And in any other part that they're looking for.

Jamin:

So the, the next step for us was, well, we wanted not just assemble things, we don't want to just make things, we want to come out with new stuff.

Jamin:

So that's where the Jackal came in.

Jamin:

The Jackal is kind of a pet project of mine.

Jamin:

The Jackal, you've got the Rock, the five seven Rock.

Jamin:

And for people wonder, why did you call the Rock?

Jamin:

Well, Ed, the E&JJ, his last name's LaRoc and his nickname is Rock, so we just named it after him.

Jamin:

He, we were in a meeting one time, he goes, I want a gun named after me.

Jamin:

I'm like, all right, well you get the next one.

Jamin:

That's why it's the five seven Rock.

Jamin:

And you know, so we really wanted to innovate.

Jamin:

And I think everyone will see at the shot show this year that we are the absolute king of innovation.

Jamin:

I can't disclose, but it will be the most baller shot show ever.

Jamin:

Like, I mean literally like decades worth of innovation released at one show.

Jamin:

So we have two different tracks.

Jamin:

To answer your question about what do we pick to go on the website, we have teams that pick what we're going to make new for our products to put on the website.

Jamin:

And those are design, branding, all kinds of different, you know, engineering teams.

Jamin:

We have 50 full time engineers that are just constantly working on new products.

Jamin:

And then, you know, you have an engineer that can make the most brilliant product design ever, but it's not manufacturable.

Jamin:

So we have manufacturing engineers and efficiency engineers.

Jamin:

That team works on our stuff and then we have what's called a business intelligence division and we're still working on that.

Jamin:

So sometimes we get so hunkered down on our stuff, we'll miss a really cool new product that someone else is making.

Jamin:

And, you know, we want to put that on our website.

Jamin:

So we're trying to get better at business intelligence, but that is the department that decides, like, it's a new product that's out.

Jamin:

Other people are selling it.

Jamin:

We need to sell it, too.

Jamin:

And that is the absolute beauty of what we do.

Jamin:

So people like.

Jamin:

I mean, to some of the industry, they don't understand us, Right?

Jamin:

And you think about it.

Jamin:

Would you ever go to Ruger to buy a PSA product?

Host:

No.

Jamin:

No.

Jamin:

But would you come to PSA to buy a Ruger product?

Host:

Yeah.

Jamin:

Yeah.

Jamin:

What a conundrum.

Jamin:

And the thing is, we've gotten to the point where we're one of the largest retailers of our competitor's product.

Jamin:

So we've created this thing where we're the number one source to buy our stuff and most of the other brands, too.

Jamin:

So it's really turned into quite an animal.

Jamin:

And like I said, the nice thing is you get to work all day.

Jamin:

Spread freedom.

Jamin:

That's really cool.

Jamin:

And we hit.

Jamin:

We try to figure out what is our vision, what are we trying to do?

Jamin:

We're trying to be the biggest.

Jamin:

Are we trying to be, you know, the most innovative?

Jamin:

While those are great, to be the biggest, most innovative if we can, our vision is to spread freedom.

Jamin:

Right?

Jamin:

And the way I look at it.

Jamin:

ow if you guys know about the:

Jamin:

So I was a kid, and I used to go a couple gun shops.

Jamin:

One was called Don's Guns, was called Edelman's.

Jamin:

I'm from Philadelphia, or outside of Philadelphia, Don's gun shop, Edelman's, which, ironically, the guy who owned that ended up starting Kimber several years after he shut that down.

Jamin:

And then there was another one called Target World.

Jamin:

And I would go in there, and they had these.

Jamin:

You had all the guns in the regular racks, and then they had these cabinets that were, like, highly secure.

Jamin:

And it was like $6,000 for an M16.

Jamin:

I'm like, why is that $6,000?

Jamin:

Because they banned them, and they're hard to find.

Jamin:

Of course, I wish I had bought all of them at $6,000.

Jamin:

And I remember thinking, like, well, why didn't somebody register, like, millions of them before that happened, and then there would be more available.

Jamin:

So that's really the way we looked at all of this, is like, all these freedoms could be taken away at any point.

Jamin:

So if the vision of our company is to spread freedom, we want to make sure that, you know, if it ever happens and we're like, wow, today was the last day.

Jamin:

We didn't expect it.

Jamin:

Well, we did our best to get as much freedom out there as possible instead of just looking at everything as a business decision, like when I slow the Trump slump and everything.

Jamin:

Well, we had machines making lowers and we could have made a decision like, we're not really going to make hardly any money if we sell them at 29.99.

Jamin:

Actually, you're just sort of just turning money and you can make a decision like, okay, well, we could lay the people off and stop making them until it comes back.

Jamin:

But we made the decision like, no, it's important even if we lose a little bit of money to get as much freedom out there.

Jamin:

So we kept everything going, we kept everything running and we just adjusted the prices because I thought at $30, you're going to get people into the hobby that weren't even going to do the price of entry is so low.

Jamin:

And so.

Jamin:

And we did that, we were able to grow, you know, spread more freedom, grow the hobby.

Jamin:

And you know, the Air 15 is like a gateway drug for guns because you build one, I'm so you think like a.308 hunting rifle.

Jamin:

Of course, we all have them, or most people have them.

Jamin:

You shoot it like once a year, right?

Jamin:

You know, slate your rifle in, drop a deer, call it a day, right?

Jamin:

Well, AR15, it looks at you and it talks to you.

Jamin:

And it's like, build me different, get another lower.

Jamin:

Like the lowers, they sit in your safe and they're like, you need a long range ar.

Jamin:

And then you do that and then another one looks at you and says, I should be a pistol ar.

Jamin:

And so you're like, I gotta do that.

Jamin:

And you can't ignore your lowers, right?

Jamin:

So like, it's just fantastic how you know, and it gets people into the hobby and building, building guns is cool because a lot of people, they put more into building them than they do shooting them.

Jamin:

And it's great because you think about it, it's fun.

Jamin:

You know, there's more people who like to shoot now because of it.

Jamin:

It gets people into the hobby.

Jamin:

It's fun because not everybody, like say you live in an apartment and you know, an urban area, you don't get to shoot as much, but you can build the guns.

Jamin:

And to me that's like, it's like Legos and it gets people into new designs.

Jamin:

Like a dagger, like the original dagger we release had no optics cut, just sort of like a more squarish style slide.

Jamin:

Well, if you bought the original One you want to upgrade to all the newest, latest and greatest.

Jamin:

Well, just buy the parts on the website and you can tinker with it.

Jamin:

And we've tried to make the guns fun.

Jamin:

In fact, one of the biggest things we have at the shot show this year is we have.

Jamin:

There's several.

Jamin:

You know, the pistol, mainly based on the Glock Gen 3 design, has become extremely Lego.

Jamin:

Like.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

Buying accessories and parts and upgrade AR15s like that.

Jamin:

Well, we are taking two other sections of the gun market and we're going to do the same thing because we feel like we can get more people into it.

Jamin:

Which you think about it, you know, someone who buys this, a hobby is perfect.

Jamin:

This is more freedom that's out there.

Jamin:

So if there ever is a ban, like I said, there'll just be so much freedom that it will have hopefully minimal effect.

Host:

Yeah, yeah, because there's some other guns out there that people are coming out with that are like Legos.

Host:

dropped the dagger, which was:

Host:

No, no, it was.

Jamin:

It was:

Jamin:

I think 20.

Jamin:

I think:

Jamin:

We teased it, but I think:

Host:

When you're coming up with an pistols design, there's a lot of money that goes into R D and things like that.

Host:

What made you go, this is the price point we want to be at?

Host:

Because you were beating everybody at price point.

Host:

And that's with all your stuff.

Host:

You guys are beating every bit.

Jamin:

So there is in that full disclosure, I'm a cpa, so if I start nerding out on numbers, someone throws something at me, I'm going to do that.

Jamin:

So, all right, when I look at firearms, I look at, you know, we have to cover our costs, right, because you have to make some money.

Jamin:

And then I look at, we have to have a little bit of markup to invest in the next thing and then so we put a price on it and that's the price.

Jamin:

And I know what it costs to make things.

Jamin:

And a lot of people will say, well, PSA sales, they're selling cheap, they're cutting some kind of corners.

Jamin:

Now the actual answer is everybody else is making boatloads of money.

Jamin:

I don't think that you really need to do that.

Jamin:

Although you should ask, you know, why are we selling so cheap?

Jamin:

The real question is, why are some companies trying to make so much on one hand?

Jamin:

And I get it, they're doing a lot of marketing and everything.

Jamin:

But I know what it costs to make the gun like we make it.

Jamin:

We make our barrel, we make our frame.

Jamin:

Well, we don't make our frame.

Jamin:

We contract that.

Jamin:

But we make the barrel, we make the slide, we make most of the parts, except for stampings and polymer.

Jamin:

We don't do that.

Jamin:

But I know what we pay for them is not terribly much.

Jamin:

And I look at what people are selling a gun for.

Jamin:

Like, you're keeping people out of the hobby.

Jamin:

And I'm trying to get people in.

Jamin:

So there is that.

Jamin:

We have to cover our costs.

Jamin:

We have to have some markup.

Jamin:

And the markup generally is to invest in the next project right past that.

Jamin:

We are not publicly traded.

Jamin:

We don't have to return.

Jamin:

It's me, Ed, and Julian.

Jamin:

Ed, we joke about him.

Jamin:

He's coolest redneck you'll ever meet.

Jamin:

Great construction guy, great to have on board.

Jamin:

And Julian and I are just huge gun guys, right.

Jamin:

And so our thing is, if we can get more people to buy because it's a more reasonable price point, spreading more freedom, that's what we would rather do.

Jamin:

Dagger's fantastic gun.

Jamin:

I could sell it for a lot more.

Jamin:

We could make a lot more money.

Jamin:

And, you know, I could have flown my private jet here.

Jamin:

Instead I drove, you know, but, you know, I just think that if we're going to follow our vision, which is to spread as much freedom, we don't need to mark everything up a ridiculous amount.

Jamin:

And that's kind of just been our vision.

Kaylee:

Yeah, well, thank you for that.

Kaylee:

Right.

Kaylee:

Because we have been discussing new gun owners and people who are.

Jamin:

So.

Kaylee:

We talk about the on ramp here.

Kaylee:

I'll rephrase this.

Kaylee:

We talk about the on ramp to the Second Amendment.

Kaylee:

Getting involved in the Second Amendment community through advocacy, through owning a firearm, through training, and there is often a cost prohibition on that right where people just don't have the funds, but they find themselves in a situation where they are trying to defend themselves, trying to defend their families.

Kaylee:

And whatever you spend on your firearm, you are assigning a certain amount of value to your own life of saying, you know, I'm going to defend myself.

Kaylee:

I'm willing to defend myself.

Kaylee:

And this is the tool, and this is the price that it takes to acquire that tool.

Kaylee:

And with everything going on in the world and with all of the new gun owners, it is so mission critical to the success of the Second Amendment that people are able to get a quality product at a low price, because everything else in the world right now costs so much more than it did Even two years ago to the point where a lot of families are struggling and a lot of people might not have the funding necessary to go buy, you know, a $3,000 handgun.

Kaylee:

Even though it's bright, shiny and fantastic.

Jamin:

Well, I think our daggers are bright, shiny and fantastic.

Jamin:

I agree, but that's just me, so.

Jamin:

But, but, but, but that again comes back to the vision and the mission which is to spread freedom.

Jamin:

So you know, like I said, make them fun, make them affordable and you know, you'll get more of them out there.

Jamin:

What people don't understand like is that that the price point Affordable guns are 90% of the market.

Jamin:

So you have, you know, the way, the way I look at the slice of the pie is you have 3% of guns.

Jamin:

People can charge that 10, 15,000, like a Barrett M82 or whatever.

Jamin:

We're selling them now.

Jamin:

This like military contract, everyone $17,000.

Jamin:

Who's going to buy that, right?

Jamin:

Well some people do.

Jamin:

That's maybe 2 to 3%.

Jamin:

Or your knights armament fantastic guns, you know, they're crazy expensive.

Jamin:

That's like 2 to 3% of the market.

Jamin:

And then the other.

Jamin:

So there's like two 90% your price point stuff and then 10% is like your higher end.

Jamin:

That 2 to 3% of that 10% is like legit unicorn type stuff, right?

Jamin:

You can't really build a company based on that.

Jamin:

And the people that get in there like the Barrett M82 totally baller gun, they, they, I mean they invented a great gun, military contracts.

Jamin:

You're not going to base a company, you know, as far as a retail company based on that because you can only sell so many, right?

Jamin:

And then you got the other 7%.

Jamin:

That's like you're a little bit higher end stuff like your HK type stuff and everything.

Jamin:

And those are nice.

Jamin:

And of course there's much higher than HK also, you know, Christiansen Arms and something you can't like we carry them in our stores but you don't sell that many of them, right?

Jamin:

So that 10% from your literally like a unicorn type 10, 20, $30,000 guns to your, you know, several thousand dollar guns is very small percent.

Jamin:

And if you're going to base your company, you know, based on that, you're really missing the broader market.

Jamin:

And the broader market is your blue collar workers or people that just don't, they might be white collar, they just don't have a ton of money to spend on it.

Jamin:

But if you can base your sales based on that and you can provide to them something that they can afford.

Jamin:

You're, you're selling and expanding our market dramatically.

Jamin:

Like if you're focused in on that 10%, whether it's the 3% of unicorn guns or 7% of just more expensive guns, you can't.

Jamin:

It's really hard to expand the hobby because if you get someone and like, hey, you know, you should, you should get a gun for self defense here I've got this fifteen hundred dollar whatever gun.

Jamin:

They're really not going to be interested.

Jamin:

You should get a gun to defend your family.

Jamin:

And here's a 299 reliable gun.

Jamin:

They could get you started.

Jamin:

Now that's the gateway drug and I say that facetiously, but that's what gets them started.

Jamin:

But then from there they might get into the higher end stuff.

Jamin:

So our goal has been while we carry that 10% stuff in our retail stores and online, if we can focus on the 90% of people that need something that's affordable.

Jamin:

First of all, once you get a gun and once you go shooting, we've had news people at our stores and always tell them we'll let you interview, whatever, but you have to shoot a gun, right?

Jamin:

And they go and they shoot a gun on the range.

Jamin:

And like this is awesome.

Jamin:

Right?

Jamin:

Well, more people that have that experience, more people get into the hobby and aren't going to be scared of guns because once they.

Jamin:

I've never, unless the person's just being, you know, just petulant.

Jamin:

I've never had anyone I've gone shooting with that afterwards wasn't like, that was awesome.

Jamin:

Like, yeah, I'm going to do that again.

Jamin:

They're not scared of it and it's like an adrenaline rush and, and so we're just trying to expand that experience for people and make it affordable.

Jamin:

And I think that's one of the reasons you've seen such an increase in firearms ownership.

Jamin:

Not, not saying it's because of us, but because there's affordable options out there that get people into the hobby.

Host:

Well, we just shot Dagger, what, two weeks ago?

Host:

Two of them.

Host:

Yeah, we shot a Dagger.

Jamin:

Life changing.

Host:

Oh yeah, no, I really, I loved it.

Host:

We shot dagger and the PA15.

Jamin:

Yep.

Host:

And that was a good time.

Host:

We did helped a friend of ours do a review of one.

Host:

So you guys have acquired a couple companies over the last couple years.

Host:

Mainly you acquired a.

Host:

The big one I would say probably would be AAC with the ammo side.

Jamin:

Well, AAC is two different.

Jamin:

So we bought out the Remington bankruptcy.

Jamin:

We bought AAC suppressors that still operates.

Jamin:

It's in Alabama.

Jamin:

And it's still running.

Jamin:

Coming out with some new innovations.

Jamin:

AAC Ammo was.

Jamin:

Is a separate company, but since we had the rights to the AAC initials, we thought we would because it kind of fit.

Jamin:

So America's Ammo Company, it's really AAC Ammo, but we use that slogan, America's Ammo Company.

Jamin:

But that was built in Columbia.

Jamin:

Well, it's right side of the Columbia Airport in West Columbia, South Carolina.

Jamin:

But we built that from the ground up.

Kaylee:

Okay, I didn't realize that.

Host:

Yeah, I didn't know that either.

Host:

Well, what then?

Host:

What made you guys decide to get into ammo?

Host:

I know you started out like you wanted to do ammo.

Jamin:

What made you.

Jamin:

A decade ago.

Jamin:

Okay, so this.

Jamin:

Because I get asked this a lot.

Jamin:

So we got to a point and you had the big ammo scare, and it was ridiculous.

Jamin:

We couldn't get ammo to test fire.

Jamin:

We, you know, we test fire, but depending on the firearm, you know, from like two to three to 10 or 20 rounds on the gun before we ship it.

Jamin:

And we couldn't get test fire ammo, and it was ridiculous.

Jamin:

And you had federal is retailing to the public off their website instead of shipping to the dealers and manufacturers.

Jamin:

I mean, it was like, call them up, like, hey, we really need some test fire ammo to get these guns out.

Jamin:

And they're like, yeah, machines down.

Jamin:

Come on.

Jamin:

You're selling it off your website direct to the public.

Jamin:

And then you have.

Jamin:

So you had these limitations on ammo.

Jamin:

We went through two of them.

Jamin:

And I was like, well, that's it.

Jamin:

I'm done.

Jamin:

We first thing we did was put in a bid to buy Remington Ammo out of the bankruptcy.

Jamin:

We got stalking Horse out of that.

Jamin:

So we ended up getting paid.

Jamin:

That fact that we didn't win, Vista outbid us.

Jamin:

And so then Vista ended up.

Jamin:

I was like, okay, well, I'm building an ammo plant, like, because we are not being able to get ammo.

Jamin:

And then I was concerned.

Jamin:

I was like, well, if we can't get ammo, American people can't get ammo.

Jamin:

And you looked at.

Jamin:

There was a couple of things, you know, you have lately, the scare with Lake City, and I'm not sure exactly what's going on there, but, you know, they're selling to the general public.

Jamin:

They're not selling to the general public.

Jamin:

But like, say, you know, all these wars because our ferocious leader Biden keeps, like, letting the world burn.

Jamin:

But, like, everybody's fighting a war.

Jamin:

So like, a lot of that Ammo goes overseas instead of that would normally go to the American civilian market.

Jamin:

And then you have this other company, Czechoslovakian company, for whatever reason, I hope that they don't let that go through.

Jamin:

But I mean, like, federal Remington ammo, cci.

Jamin:

I mean, there's like American icons, symbols of freedom.

Jamin:

They should not be owned by a foreign company.

Jamin:

But you think about it like, you know, if Lake City gets totally jammed up with military contracts and this, for whatever reason, you know, Vista and their brands can't ship to the American public.

Jamin:

I mean, this pub.

Jamin:

The country is like on the verge of losing their second amendment by no ammo.

Jamin:

That was what concerned me the most.

Jamin:

So we just started it.

Jamin:

We're about, unfortunately, about 160 million in on it.

Jamin:

And it is facilities, 325,000 square feet.

Jamin:

I mean, its own primer plant.

Jamin:

We have three buildings.

Jamin:

It's nuts.

Jamin:

And if you guys want to come out and do a video out there, we'd be more than happy.

Jamin:

It's about two and a half hours from here in Colombia.

Jamin:

And that was, you know, we take lead ingots and we draw the bullets out.

Jamin:

We lead, head them, swage them, make our own, you know, pretty much everything.

Jamin:

Brass.

Jamin:

We draw the brass out.

Jamin:

We form it, we load it, make the primer.

Jamin:

We do everything.

Jamin:

We don't make powder.

Host:

Now, I want to touch on the Remington bankruptcy real quick because you guys got AAC out of it and you also got hr, correct?

Host:

What made you want to get the H and R brand?

Jamin:

Oh, man, I salivated over that one.

Jamin:

So one of my coolest guns I've ever had.

Jamin:

I have an H and R transferable M16A1.

Jamin:

And like, I mean, I didn't sleep for days when I was trying to get that gun.

Jamin:

And I got it at an auction.

Jamin:

It's, like, so beautiful.

Jamin:

I still look at it and just makes me happy.

Jamin:

And so it's such a cool logo and such an iconic piece of American history, people.

Jamin:

And the museum we're building right down the road from here, you know, there's all these companies from Singer Sewing Machine to AC Spark Plug to, you know, H and R that, you know, they.

Jamin:

They provided freedom for the American people.

Jamin:

A lot of them gone.

Jamin:

Gone away, right?

Jamin:

And to bring back the legacy of H and R, I mean, they made M14s, M1 Garands, and these are hints as the future product.

Jamin:

They made M14s and M1 Garands and M16s and wow.

Jamin:

And then just other cool, you know, they made revolvers and single shot shotguns and all that.

Jamin:

But I thought if I could bring that brand back, that's just, it's so cool to be able to bring an American icon back.

Jamin:

And it's done very well.

Host:

One of the first guns I learned on was an H and R single shot.

Host:

And I was gonna, you kind of hit the, the single shot.

Host:

I mean there's no, there's not a lot of companies doing that anymore.

Host:

And I feel like that's a part of our American histories and a step into the gun, into the second amendment that we're missing now is those single shot shotguns and rifles and things that all those cool little things H and R did over there.

Jamin:

It would be really cool if somebody brought a lot of those guns back at some point in the future.

Host:

I hope so.

Jamin:

I wonder if somebody would do that.

Jamin:

Maybe not, but there's a lot of cool stuff in the works now.

Kaylee:

Well, I'm excited for whatever is, is coming down, down the road.

Kaylee:

And I will say that for those who, I'm sure almost everyone that has listened has been on your website and purchased something from your website.

Kaylee:

And from a GOA perspective, it has been an amazing journey with you all as a company since we became formal partners and what you guys are allowing people to do, even though it might not seem like a lot to people, but by allowing someone to round up the transaction where all of that money is going into our second Amendment preservation fund, that money is going directly to file lawsuits and to advocate for the second Amendment.

Kaylee:

You, there's a dollar amount that's the value.

Kaylee:

But there's another amount that is something that we'll never be able to calculate and that is getting people to say potentially for the first time, yeah, I want to fight for my rights, I want to defend my rights.

Kaylee:

And that's what GOA is all about, is the grassroots.

Jamin:

Right.

Kaylee:

And so I want to take a minute to just say thank you because.

Jamin:

Sure.

Jamin:

Well, we appreciate what you do for us.

Jamin:

I don't think people understand because I spend a lot of time on ar15.com just because I'm trying to get gun owners perspective.

Jamin:

And a lot of the comments, they don't understand how expensive it is to fight the fights that are being waged right now.

Jamin:

So when you look at gun control, I think that, you know, liberals and I said, don't say Democrats and Republicans because liberals in general, no matter what party you're in, they, they would love to ram through something through the House and Senate signed by the President, but they're really having a difficult Time now.

Jamin:

And depending on how elections go, I hope for, you know, generations to come, it's the same way.

Jamin:

But what they're doing now, and it's really dangerous, is bump stock ban.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

That wasn't passed by anybody.

Jamin:

That was just an edict given.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And you have brace ban and edict given.

Jamin:

Now you have this more recent changing what is in the business to stop people from having private sales.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

Like, you don't have the right to do that.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

As a bureaucrat.

Jamin:

And I've actually talked to some of these people.

Jamin:

They've sat in our conference room, and one of them said to me, well, it's super easy to comply.

Jamin:

Just do what we say.

Jamin:

And I was like, but you don't have the right to tell anybody that.

Jamin:

Like, who are you?

Jamin:

You're not.

Jamin:

Has to go through the House, the Senate, the president has to sign it.

Jamin:

That's how laws are made.

Jamin:

But in their minds.

Jamin:

And of course, I said professionally, because I'm not trying to get arrested, but.

Jamin:

But in their mind, they can speak into law by writing a little regulation.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

That is what the industry is up against right now.

Jamin:

And I remember.

Jamin:

And we've gotten.

Jamin:

Because you've seen some of the meekest briefs we filed, some of the lawsuits we filed.

Jamin:

We.

Jamin:

We are part of frack.

Jamin:

So our lawsuits generally done through frack.

Jamin:

But we've done them as jj, we've done them as psa.

Jamin:

We filed mikas.

Jamin:

When we're trying to help someone out if we think think we can add to their argument.

Jamin:

I remember the first one, I talked to the law firm that was doing, and I said, okay, well, you know, we're not rich, so, like, try and keep this cheap.

Jamin:

He's like, yeah, I should probably keep it around 300,000.

Jamin:

I was like, well, do better, because that's crazy money.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

And then he's like, no, that's what it costs.

Jamin:

And people don't understand that it's expensive.

Jamin:

And the government, they have these attorneys that are there just fighting you tooth and nail, and they're paid by us.

Jamin:

So us, the people on Arfcom talking about the issues, people buying their groceries, us in the industry, we're paying their attorneys to fight and take away our rights.

Jamin:

And at the same time, we have to pay our attorneys to fight back.

Jamin:

And it is tremendously expensive.

Jamin:

Especially when you think about we're paying both sides from our taxes being taken out.

Jamin:

We're paying taxes so the government can take away our rights.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Kaylee:

I mean, I think you said it so poignantly.

Kaylee:

But, you know, when we go back to the bump stocks and we look at the fact that we're just now getting to see a case go before the Supreme Court, you know, GOA had filed a case in that, and hopefully we've been able to lay some arguments and pave a way for this to have a positive outcome.

Kaylee:

And you know, we won at the lower level and then lost at the, the appeal to the Supreme Court to pick up our case.

Kaylee:

We're so excited to see something come out, but that has been a long time coming.

Kaylee:

The same thing with any time you have the ATF redefining something, the lawsuits are expensive.

Kaylee:

But I will say all of that to say this.

Kaylee:

Comment periods matter and getting pro gun comments on the ATF pages anytime, whether it's the frame and receiver rule, whether it's the new universal background checks that's currently making its way through its comment period, whether it is green tip ammo, which we won based off of the comments that were made to the atf.

Kaylee:

You know, I'm, I'm very proud of our members and this organization because we put value getting people to make comments.

Jamin:

And one of the big things, and it's a great point, but the comments on the original brace ban proposal, you know, explaining how it's ambiguous and they have that form, that sheet and like basically you couldn't figure out what's going on.

Jamin:

When the ATF actually launched their rule, they took all that out.

Jamin:

And that's part of the flaw they have with the rule is that it's not traceable back to the original rule that they proposed.

Jamin:

The comment period, had them do that and create the fatal flaw.

Jamin:

Of course, I don't think it's constitutional, but create the fatal flaw, it's probably going to get it totally struck down.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Kaylee:

And furthermore, on the pistol braces, and I could go on and on and on about this, but one of the main arguments that the ATF has predicated their entire case on is the fact that they have the authority to redefine.

Kaylee:

And everyone called Goa crazy.

Kaylee:

You can go back to the Twitter feed and all of the comments because we were pushing so hard for the House joint resolution to pass, and it was thanks to our members and everyone that took action on that that it did pass in a bipartisan manner.

Kaylee:

So we can go back and say, you know what, even the House of Representatives said, no, this was not the intent.

Kaylee:

You don't have the authority to do this.

Kaylee:

And so it may feel like the death of a thousand cuts, but those sort of fatal Flaws, those sort of things that, you know, the House of Representatives, everyone who made a comment during that time, all of that gets taken into account with these lawsuits.

Kaylee:

And it's what allows us to have a better case.

Kaylee:

And it hopefully will cause us to win the ultimate fight when it comes to not only this battle, but future battles.

Kaylee:

Because precedent in the legal system is so vital.

Kaylee:

And it's one of those nuances that not everyone understands because, thank the Lord, not everyone is a lawyer.

Kaylee:

So.

Host:

Well, this is their war on.

Host:

You coined it, Kaylee.

Host:

ATF's war on plastic when it comes to this.

Host:

But it's also the war at the dinner table.

Host:

And we're seeing this with the pistol brace, the bump stock, and now this new ruling about being an ffl.

Host:

If you sell your stuff and make money.

Host:

I mean, it's ridiculous.

Host:

You brought up $6,000 machine guns.

Host:

Like, imagine if you had a machine gun that you bought really well, and then you go sell it for $60,000 and now you're doing commerce and now you're a felon.

Jamin:

Yeah.

Jamin:

So it's interesting.

Jamin:

I really like the point where you're heading with it.

Jamin:

So when you look and I look at these, the, you know, the blogs and everything, people get so discouraged.

Jamin:

We're never going to win.

Jamin:

Well, if we keep fighting, I actually believe we are going to win.

Jamin:

It's just the government has the advantage of unlimited money and they'll just wear you down.

Jamin:

I remember talking to the gentleman from the ATF who had written, who had written some of these rulings and just trying to get inside of his head because he was out doing some sort of inspection.

Jamin:

Just want to talk to him.

Jamin:

And when you hear the way they think and which they think that because they don't want you to do it, you shouldn't be able to do it.

Jamin:

It's crazy, right?

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

And it's easy to comply.

Jamin:

Just do that.

Jamin:

Like, you don't have a right to tell me to do that.

Jamin:

They believe that they do.

Jamin:

It's very frustrating for the consumer because they think like, well, what's going on behind the scenes?

Jamin:

Well, we're fighting.

Jamin:

Lots of us are fighting.

Jamin:

It's not just goa, it's not just JJ psa, it's not just Firearms Policy Coalition, the nra.

Jamin:

Sometimes they get a bad rap.

Jamin:

They've done some odd things, but they're fighting.

Jamin:

But the problem is it takes so long.

Jamin:

People tend to disengage and get discouraged.

Jamin:

And we haven't won everything just yet, but we're about ready To I believe we're going to have some serious breakthroughs here soon.

Jamin:

Think about like the California assault weapons ban, right?

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

That was:

Jamin:

now almost, I'm sorry,:

Jamin:

But I think that's going to make it to the Supreme Court and I think we're going to win.

Jamin:

The government has advantage of unlimited funds and they'll just wear you down.

Jamin:

So the one thing I say, you're right, you have to keep going with the comment period.

Jamin:

We have to keep the good fight up and understand that we.

Jamin:

If you want your freedom, you got to be more tenacious and more dedicated than the people trying to take it away.

Jamin:

Because talking to these people, I've actually talked to the people who are on the other side and they're belligerent, they're arrogant, they believe that the government, it's almost like their regulations are like, you know, tablets delivered by Moses.

Jamin:

They like literally revere, like it's the bible, it's the code of federal regulations.

Jamin:

Who cares, right?

Jamin:

But it's like the code of federal regulator.

Jamin:

Like, like is promulgating these auras from heaven.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And it's like give me a break.

Jamin:

Leave people alone.

Jamin:

And it's not just our industry.

Jamin:

You have, I've talked to people who are in the banking and finance industry, in the medical community.

Jamin:

They're doing it to everyone.

Jamin:

And we all need to push back and we can't give up and get discouraged.

Jamin:

I see the comments on like I said on air one five com, we gotta stay in the fight.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Kaylee:

And I think they are counting.

Kaylee:

I don't think they're counting.

Kaylee:

I know that they're counting on us giving up, us not educating the next generation, us just taking a backseat to the fight.

Kaylee:

They are expecting what they've always known and what is so great about gun owners and about what's happening in our community at large as we are welcoming new gun owners in, we're educating them off the bat.

Kaylee:

We're going into the places that.

Kaylee:

Sorry, we're going into the places that the left, the anti gun left believes they already own.

Kaylee:

ege campuses have been almost:

Kaylee:

It has been their safe place.

Kaylee:

It has been where they thrive.

Kaylee:

It's been what they do.

Kaylee:

And we have a college group now that we've started to fight back against that.

Kaylee:

And I love the fact that they have recognized and that students are recognizing and we get hundreds of students every week contacting us, trying to move up to the next level and to fight and to get educated and to get resources out on campuses.

Kaylee:

And what they're telling us is simple.

Kaylee:

It is only an echo chamber that they control if we refuse to speak.

Kaylee:

And how dare we give up on the next generation of gun owners when they're fighting a fight that in many cases is more tyrannical than anything we're facing in the general public.

Jamin:

Yeah, this move to control people and what you can do and have a thumb on your life.

Jamin:

It's not just gun ownership.

Jamin:

It's everywhere.

Jamin:

And there's people that are getting sick of it.

Jamin:

They're getting totally fed up.

Jamin:

The left is losing the left because leftism used to be, you know, I believe all these crazy looney things because I'm obviously, I'm conservative, right.

Jamin:

So I think what they believe is loony.

Jamin:

But it was like, at least when I was growing up, and it was like, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe.

Jamin:

Fight to defend your right to believe that.

Jamin:

And they would fight for my right to believe that.

Jamin:

What the left has turned into now is this like thought police.

Jamin:

It's actually, if you listen, and I don't agree with Bill Maher's politics, but you listen to Bill Maher and some of these other people, they're noticing it too.

Jamin:

Like, this isn't liberalism.

Jamin:

This is like.

Jamin:

It's almost like a cultural Marxism.

Jamin:

What's really odd and it's really bad.

Jamin:

You brought up another point.

Jamin:

I just lost my train of thought on it.

Jamin:

Oh, yeah.

Jamin:

About so gun ownership getting into more non traditional.

Jamin:

You think, like gun ownership's more like, you know, culturally conservative, white male.

Jamin:

And it has moved into those other areas and it's really so important.

Jamin:

I did a show one time and the person that was interviewing me was like, I mean, I could feel their eyeballs rolling in their head, talking to me.

Jamin:

Like I was so below them, they didn't want to talk to me at all.

Jamin:

And you know, they're like, okay, tell me why what you do is important.

Jamin:

Like eye roll, eye roll.

Jamin:

Look, you know, I'm like, like, because they just couldn't wait to just trash me.

Jamin:

I said, well, I think everyone should be free.

Jamin:

And they're like, okay, sure, whatever.

Jamin:

And I was like, no, think about it, right?

Jamin:

If we're all free, we're all better off.

Jamin:

Think about like the Jews in the Holocaust.

Jamin:

If they could have been free, free to own a firearm, they could have held off as best they could or at least had a shot to hang out, hold off the Holocaust.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

Or like slavery.

Jamin:

Like, if the poor people that were enslaved in some way defend themselves, work together to, you know, if we're all free, we're all better off.

Jamin:

And the freedom to defend yourself is a critical freedom.

Jamin:

And I think people are realizing that.

Jamin:

You look what happened in Israel.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

The right to defend yourself is a civil right.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

And part of this weird cultural Marxism is you have to think like I do.

Jamin:

And I just read a newspaper article in some Israeli paper where they were.

Jamin:

They were scared that Israeli citizens would end up with guns because someone could get hurt.

Jamin:

Like, like the mental illness that.

Jamin:

That takes to think that way.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

Like, oh, people just ran through your neighborhood killing you, but you can't have a gun because someone could get hurt.

Jamin:

Like, I mean, that's pure mental illness.

Jamin:

And it says cultural Marxism.

Jamin:

I'm sure they have the same issues Israel with it right now that we do, but it's like a creeping thing that's coming into people's lives is like choking them out, choking out what you can say, what you can think, your ability to defend it.

Jamin:

And it is critical because people love to be free.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And what is freedom?

Jamin:

Sometimes you can define it, sometimes you can't.

Jamin:

But really, you know, when you're losing, you can feel when you're losing your freedom.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And that message about being free is.

Jamin:

It's exciting.

Jamin:

Right.

Jamin:

And so when we get into these other markets, you have like a person in maybe an urban area that's not safe.

Jamin:

They don't feel safe.

Jamin:

What can they do?

Jamin:

Exercise some of your freedom doesn't mean go do something bad.

Jamin:

It just means have the ability to defend it.

Jamin:

It makes you feel good again to be free.

Jamin:

Whether that's freedom of speech.

Jamin:

Because we do things with the First Amendment too.

Jamin:

Because I think the First Amendment is under attack.

Jamin:

People want to be free.

Jamin:

And our goal as a company is to spread more freedom.

Jamin:

And the only thing we might be coming to the end of this thing, I don't know because I talk a lot, but is that we can't give up.

Jamin:

Right.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Jamin:

You have to keep going.

Jamin:

And it doesn't feel like we're winning, but I really, to most people, but I'm behind the scenes, I'm seeing what's going on in these court cases.

Jamin:

I think we are winning.

Kaylee:

Yeah.

Kaylee:

No, I mean, I would agree, because you're seeing if the left, if the antigen left was winning, we wouldn't see so many people getting trained, getting into gun ownership and then taking that step, whether it's on a college campus or on an inner.

Kaylee:

Or in an inner city, like, those things happen because the movement is.

Kaylee:

The culture is shifting and it's shifting to an understanding that our rights are constitutionally protected.

Kaylee:

They're not government granted.

Kaylee:

And it doesn't matter what the bureaucracies want us to believe.

Kaylee:

That is the truth.

Host:

I got the Ralph sign from Ben out there.

Host:

So let's go ahead and wrap this up.

Host:

Jamon.

Host:

Really appreciate it.

Host:

The history.

Host:

The history was great.

Host:

The conversation about policy was great.

Host:

Everything was great.

Host:

Where can.

Host:

Besides palmetto, statearmory.com and all your social medias, do you want to give any hints or anything or this.

Host:

This episode is not going to air until probably late December.

Host:

So if you want to give any hints or anything coming up because we got that big show in Vegas coming up here real soon.

Jamin:

You guys gonna have to wait.

Host:

Gotta wait.

Jamin:

It's under wraps.

Jamin:

It's big, though.

Jamin:

We could do a show out there.

Kaylee:

Yeah, let's do it.

Host:

Let's do a show.

Jamin:

Or maybe in the booth or.

Host:

Yeah, I think we.

Host:

I mean, I think we could have him on like multiple times.

Kaylee:

Great.

Host:

No, I really.

Host:

I mean, I don't think we even scratched the surface of the amount of information that you have and what we can talk about.

Host:

But I really.

Host:

We really do appreciate you coming on.

Host:

We appreciate, like Kaylee said, everything that you've done for Goa and everything you've done for the second amendment over the last 14 years.

Host:

So that's a wrap.

Host:

Anything you want to say before we go?

Jamin:

Thanks for having me.

Jamin:

It was fun.

Jamin:

And let's do it again.

Host:

Yeah, let's do it again.

Host:

For sure.

Kaylee:

Kaylee, Sounds good.

Host:

All right, cool.

Host:

Well, thank you guys for watching.

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About the Podcast

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State of the Second
The State of The Second, an interview style podcast focusing on the impact that legislation and activism is having on the firearms industry, and the second amendment community.

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